Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

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Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by KCMax »

http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/03/13/ ... o-podcast/
SHOUP: Everybody likes free parking, including me, probably you. But just because the driver doesn’t pay for it doesn’t mean that the cost goes away. If you don’t pay for parking your car, somebody else has to pay for it. And that somebody is everybody. We pay for free parking in the prices of the goods we buy at places where the parking is free. And we pay for parking as residents when we get free parking with our housing. We pay for it as taxpayers. Increasingly, I think we’re paying for it in terms of the environmental harm that it causes.
You’ll also hear from MIT professor Eran Ben-Joseph, whose book ReThinking a Lot: The Design and Culture of Parking offers solutions to improve the prototypical parking lot. He gives us a sense of how many surface parking spaces there are in the U.S. (close to 800 million) and points out that in some cities, parking lots cover a full third of the land area downtown.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by flyingember »

I'd love to see the tax value of all the public and TDD funded parking in the KC area
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

If you don’t pay for parking your car, somebody else has to pay for it. And that somebody is everybody.
If you use a credit card to pay everybody pays for that. Afterall the business has to pay on average 2% to 3% to the credit card company to process the transaction. Write a check? Telecheck and other companies also charge the business. Pity the poor cash customer.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by KCMax »

Well in your example, not "everyone" pays those costs, only those people that are customers of the parking entity.

If a customer has to pay cash, those customers also pay for that to since someone has to be paid to accept and process that cash.

However, this is all kind of a non-sequitor to the points being made in the article. Yes, there are overhead costs to running a parking "business" that all customers pay, but this is implicit in the cost of what is being sold. With parking that is sold as "free", those costs are hidden, and thus what is marketed as free is still being paid by everyone in society through the costs business have to absorb in the requirements they provide parking, in the higher housing costs because parking is required, and the environmental costs.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by pash »

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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by chaglang »

pash wrote:unsubsidized suburbs
I am not familiar with these.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

Didn't miss the point, just wanted to point out there are hidden costs in many areas. But if you want to include the environmental costs go ahead but even the author mentioned it more as a side note since it was only one sentence in the quote and more of an after-thought.

But then I don't know what is "hidden" about the cost of free parking. Even with parking paid for by the customer the costs implied are the same.

Anyway, just for fun, what about the hidden costs of mass transit? Usage of bicycles? Instead of tax support our bus system and Amtrak why not make in completely fare supported? License bicycles like cars to pay for bike trails. And why you're at it establish a shoe license to pay for sidewalks.

I just don't buy into the premise he wishes to make. If he wants to rant and rave at so-called free parking to attack auto usage then just attack auto usage and our society.

Just wonder. Did the cowboys in the Old West have to pay to park their horses outside the saloon while they were inside getting a drink? What about the ranchers and farmers, when they took their buggy into town to buy supplies did they pay to park?
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by chaglang »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:Did the cowboys in the Old West have to pay to park their horses outside the saloon while they were inside getting a drink? What about the ranchers and farmers, when they took their buggy into town to buy supplies did they pay to park?
On-street parking: they hitched on the street. If they were going to stay longer, they could pay to put them in a corral or stable.

I knew that American Studies degree would come in handy someday, but this wasn't quite how I pictured it.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by pash »

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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

OK, what is the proposal on how to deal with "free parking"? Free parking has been around a lot longer than paid parking so how are you, or whoever, going to eliminate or reduce free parking? You can condemn free parking all you want but so what.

A business can control some parking spaces and offer free or reduce parking to give it a competitive edge over others. Or it can validate parking at select lots. An employer can offer an employee free parking, or subsidized parking, as an inducement for employment. A building owner can include a set number of parking spaces in the rent to get a business to select its building over another. Or an apartment building owner including a parking space or two in the rent. So are you going to interfere with the above and legislate the elimination of free parking or outlaw it?

Just look at the discussion in the subject about the Downtown Y. Many contend there is plenty or an abundance of parking downtown but a "fitness center" better have plenty of parking built with it so people don't have to walk a block or two.

Give me a serious subject to talk about and we can be serious. But bitching about free parking is not a serious subject, at least in the way presented above.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by KCMax »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:OK, what is the proposal on how to deal with "free parking"? Free parking has been around a lot longer than paid parking so how are you, or whoever, going to eliminate or reduce free parking? You can condemn free parking all you want but so what.

A business can control some parking spaces and offer free or reduce parking to give it a competitive edge over others. Or it can validate parking at select lots. An employer can offer an employee free parking, or subsidized parking, as an inducement for employment. A building owner can include a set number of parking spaces in the rent to get a business to select its building over another. Or an apartment building owner including a parking space or two in the rent. So are you going to interfere with the above and legislate the elimination of free parking or outlaw it?

Just look at the discussion in the subject about the Downtown Y. Many contend there is plenty or an abundance of parking downtown but a "fitness center" better have plenty of parking built with it so people don't have to walk a block or two.

Give me a serious subject to talk about and we can be serious. But bitching about free parking is not a serious subject, at least in the way presented above.
I think the proposal is not requiring businesses to provide parking. My mom opened a business in KC in a dense part of town. She relies almost exclusively on foot traffic. But she's required by law to provide parking. So she has to contract with a nearby parking lot to lease those spots, even though very few if any of her customers will use that. This cost has to be absorbed by the business (and passed onto customers, most of which don't enjoy the benefits of that parking). So it is not free parking, and it does not give her business any kind of competitive advantage. And yet it is required by law.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

That is a separate issue, and one I would have sympathy with. That issue is an expense that is carried by the business (which provides free parking to the customer or not). What the other issue is free parking to the customer.

They are related but are separate issues.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by KCMax »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:That is a separate issue, and one I would have sympathy with. That issue is an expense that is carried by the business (which provides free parking to the customer or not). What the other issue is free parking to the customer.

They are related but are separate issues.
The free parking is an expense to the business. That is the point of the podcast.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

From the quote above (with regards to Shoup) I took it to be free parking from a customer point-of-view, especially when "housing" is mentioned. Depending on how it is managed free parking or paid parking costs would be the same to the business so what is the big deal? With regards to your mom that cost of parking to the business is the same whether or not the customer paid for its usage.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by KCMax »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:From the quote above (with regards to Shoup) I took it to be free parking from a customer point-of-view, especially when "housing" is mentioned. Depending on how it is managed free parking or paid parking costs would be the same to the business so what is the big deal? With regards to your mom that cost of parking to the business is the same whether or not the customer paid for its usage.
You should probably listen to the podcast, because I don't think you understand what the discussion is about.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

I have read some of Shoup before. So if it is like his writings sobeit, it is a free country to express one's opinions. He does have some good ideas.

Here is a good question for you, based on your mom's experience. Would you be willing to invest, say $20M, in downtown KCMO building a new structure or rehabbing an older one without putting any money into parking? Whoever uses your building has to find their own parking therefore no hidden costs in your project.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by KCMax »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:I have read some of Shoup before. So if it is like his writings sobeit, it is a free country to express one's opinions. He does have some good ideas.

Here is a good question for you, based on your mom's experience. Would you be willing to invest, say $20M, in downtown KCMO building a new structure or rehabbing an older one without putting any money into parking? Whoever uses your building has to find their own parking therefore no hidden costs in your project.
Depends entirely on what the use is for, and what the area is like around it, and what transit lines run near it. But in the right circumstance, of course. Its nice to have that choice, and not have it imposed on me.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

What is the right circumstance? Describe it.

BTW, another question. How much of the car traffic cruising the streets in the CBD is driving around looking for a place to park on the street?
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by KCMax »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:What is the right circumstance? Describe it.

BTW, another question. How much of the car traffic cruising the streets in the CBD is driving around looking for a place to park on the street?
Lots of foot traffic, near a major bus/streetcar line, it would be cumbersome/expensive to put parking near the building.
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Re: Freakonomics: Parking is Hell - the hidden costs

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

Doesn't describe KCMO much.
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