KCRag Forum

^Thats why I think Springfield will eventually have more political/state influence in the next 5-10 years if these trends continue - The Springfield metro will be smaller but I think it will be more important on a state/political level than KC. It might already be headed that way now.

^Take a closer look. It's STL metro that's turning more GOP with a significant DEM identity drop.

2017 and 2013, open in new tabs...
http://ava.prri.org/#politics/2017/Metr ... ty/m/13,28
http://ava.prri.org/#politics/2013/Metr ... ty/m/13,28

Yeah STL will always have the #1 political influence and never questioned that, i was specifically speaking KC and Springfield, wonder if it will get to a point where the KC side is treated like the Illinois side of St Louis (Completely Ignored)

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:21 am According to this, KS has significantly moved away from being the most GOP state now more towards Indie from 2013 to 2017. MO has increased in Indie identity as well but GOP increased higher than KS.

http://ava.prri.org/#politics/2017/Stat ... S-KS,US-MO
http://ava.prri.org/#politics/2013/Stat ... S-KS,US-MO

STL metro actually gained GOP identity while KC metro dropped GOP significantly during same period. KC also now has more Indie identity than STL while both now have same DEM identity.
http://ava.prri.org/#politics/2017/Metr ... ty/m/13,28
http://ava.prri.org/#politics/2013/Metr ... ty/m/13,28

Right click and open each of these in a new tab to see comparisons. I think 2018 data comes out around late Spring.

but don't Dems out number Repubs in most large urban areas?

Typically not most burbs in red states and these are metro stats. Independents now fast growing.

Keep in mind that it's projected that the Shoal Creek area will add around 70,000 people over time. I imagine Parkville, Liberty, Lee's Summit, Belton, and Raymore will keep growing. I don't see the Missouri side being that diminished.

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:23 am ^Take a closer look. It's STL metro that's turning more GOP with a significant DEM identity drop.

2017 and 2013, open in new tabs...
http://ava.prri.org/#politics/2017/Metr ... ty/m/13,28
http://ava.prri.org/#politics/2013/Metr ... ty/m/13,28

i think thats a local artifact of polarization of the metro area as STL county becomes more solidly democrat and the outer counties seemed to identify more nationalist/maga. that 2000s and early 2010s libertarian thing seems to be dying off a lot more quickly around rustbelt cities. i dont think there are such stark divides and sorting in suburban KC..people seem to be taking sides a bit more fiercely over here e.g. stl county vs st. charles. it's not like specifically only suburban jackson county butts heads with joco or something head on quite like happens here, KCMO is usually wrapped up in it somehow. 2017 was also a weird year for that and since the right to work repeal probably is a bit less dramatic.

^My sisters in W County grew up DEM leaning (in city), their husbands have Fox News on 24/7. My sisters have since drank The Wall koolaid.

KS had the disastrous GOP 'experiment' that failed. Several in seat have switched to DEM, now a DEM gov and they also voted in a lesbian rep. KS has gone from *the* most red state to middle of road. There are still a lot of conservatives in KC metro but many not supporting this flavor of GOP.

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:31 pm ^My sisters in W County grew up DEM leaning (in city), their husbands have Fox News on 24/7. My sisters have since drank The Wall koolaid.

KS had the disastrous GOP 'experiment' that failed. Several in seat have switched to DEM, now a DEM gov and they also voted in a lesbian rep. KS has gone from *the* most red state to middle of road. There are still a lot of conservatives in KC metro but many not supporting this flavor of GOP.

a lot of it is context. i see that version of spite- conservatism- upset that the dems are running the county, now, and are going to be extra annoying about it because they feel oppressed.

who knows, but what i am seeing is polarization, and it's working itself out geographically much more radically in metro st. louis than kc, i think. theres even increasingly a split between inner west county and outer west county (e.g. creve coeur vs chesterfield).

does it really mean that there's a lot of former or moderate republicans in joco that are pro-single payer now? not sure, but consider the starting point on the political spectrum.

i mean in 2016-17 did joco go left of st louis county? naw. did union guys in st charles/jeffco go hard rustbelt nationalist/maga? yeah. i think the baseline ks religious conservative streak is a different animal.

According to same source, KS has a bit more religiously unaffiliated than MO and more Latino Catholic of course but was surprised to see KS white/latino catholic combined is more than MO. KS has slightly more evangelical than MO but southern MO seems more driven to politicize religion in this era.

State comparisons...
http://ava.prri.org/#religious/2017/Sta ... S-KS,US-MO

Metro comparisons...
http://ava.prri.org/#religious/2017/Met ... on/m/13,28

i actually think western missouri (non KCMO osage plains) may be more wacky protestant than kansas, southwest missouri and the ozarks of course is obvious.

disclaimer: i tend to contend that "missouri" really isn't a thing in the way say kentucky is, but a collection of overlapping and non overlapping regions.

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:46 pm According to same source, KS has a bit more religiously unaffiliated than MO and more Latino Catholic of course but was surprised to see KS white/latino catholic combined is more than MO. KS has slightly more evangelical than MO but southern MO seems more driven to politicize religion in this era.

State comparisons...
http://ava.prri.org/#religious/2017/Sta ... S-KS,US-MO

Metro comparisons...
http://ava.prri.org/#religious/2017/Met ... on/m/13,28

the catholic thing is predictable but i would have expected kc to be more morman than st. louis, kc just feels much more interior west inflected.

At the risk of generalizations.. . Northland KC evangelicals seem pretty religiously extroverted where KS evangelicals more likely to keep to themselves, but neither as politicizing as southern MO. I spend a lot of time in NW and upper central MO and they appear to be more like Iowa. St Joe area still more Catholic leaning in identity it seems but fewer practicing.

Iowa...
http://ava.prri.org/#religious/2017/Sta ... on/m/US-IA

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:01 pm At the risk of generalizations.. . Northland KC evangelicals seem pretty religiously extroverted where KS evangelicals more likely to keep to themselves, but neither as politicizing as southern MO. I spend a lot of time in NW and upper central MO and they appear to be more like Iowa. St Joe area still more Catholic leaning in identity it seems but fewer practicing.

Iowa...
http://ava.prri.org/#religious/2017/Sta ... on/m/US-IA

my characterization of northern missouri is that it is half central illinois rustbelt in the larger towns and quasi-flatland ozark overall. noticeably less economic development and college education than rural iowa but couldnt really comment on religiosity.

Northern Missouri is nothing like the Ozark flatlands. I've been in *every* county in the state. There's a reason for this, northern Missouri is glacial till while the Ozarks are not.

Culturally things are more similar today but population movement tended to happen by latitude. This is because farming skills follow east to west. So if your family moved west from Massachusetts over 200 years you likely ended up in northern Missouri. If you moved from Virginia you ended up in southern Missouri. Part of my family lived in northern Arkansas and that branch moved from the Carolinas and Tennessee.

Everything north of the Missouri river is various types of farming. County seats all tend to be centered on farming and smaller towns all have the feel of a community where everyone owns a piece of land or works in a job supporting these families, like they work at the school or repair farm machinery.

The Ozarks, is much more varied, you can find farming on the western end in the counties around Springfield, but you get a lot more logging, and in some parts mining. There's also a lot more tourism. Most of the notable state parks are in the Ozarks. The Lake of the Ozarks looks nothing like the area around Long Branch Lake.

flyingember wrote: ↑Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:48 am Northern Missouri is nothing like the Ozark flatlands. I've been in *every* county in the state. There's a reason for this, northern Missouri is glacial till while the Ozarks are not.

Culturally things are more similar today but population movement tended to happen by latitude. This is because farming skills follow east to west. So if your family moved west from Massachusetts over 200 years you likely ended up in northern Missouri. If you moved from Virginia you ended up in southern Missouri. Part of my family lived in northern Arkansas and that branch moved from the Carolinas and Tennessee.

Everything north of the Missouri river is various types of farming. County seats all tend to be centered on farming and smaller towns all have the feel of a community where everyone owns a piece of land or works in a job supporting these families, like they work at the school or repair farm machinery.

The Ozarks, is much more varied, you can find farming on the western end in the counties around Springfield, but you get a lot more logging, and in some parts mining. There's also a lot more tourism. Most of the notable state parks are in the Ozarks. The Lake of the Ozarks looks nothing like the area around Long Branch Lake.

i was implying that it had some socioeconomic similarities to the ozarks, which, well it does. there seems to be a bit more of an underclass on the missouri side than up in iowa. i understand the geological differences, and spend a lot of time in the eastern ozarks. you can literally see the northeast corner of the geological (if not cultural) ozarks in my profile pic.

also, my understanding of american movement into missouri - following the settlement by the french creoles (based on my family history and others) is that the early waves of settlers, often from virginia like my ancestors, followed the rivers, and the ozark uplands were settled last - often picked over as late as early 20th century (and then widely abandoned during depression as the scant topsoil had sloughed off into ozark waterways) after being clear cut by timber and mining companies from st. louis, etc by the last waves of settlers into the state (and cities) from wherever...sometimes poor irish/european immigrants (hence irish wilderness).

old mississippi river cities north of st. louis like louisiana, hannibal, etc were settled by waves of people from virginia (and pennsylvania, etc) settling the counties that were accessible by boat, pre-railroad. it didnt really correspond to north/south, at least in missouri, combination of navigability of waterways and arable land was far more important. older missouri cities along the missouri river west of the german settled towns for instance are named for virginia and kentucky cities.

flatland southEAST missouri of course is a different animal and was settled earlier than the geological ozarks but even then parts of it struggled as it required draining of vast swamps, etc.

i'm reading "american nations" right now and it feels very accurate on a macro-level. I appreciate the description of STL as a "border city" straddling the nations of Midlands and Appalachia.

chrizow wrote: ↑Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:30 pm i'm reading "american nations" right now and it feels very accurate on a macro-level. I appreciate the description of STL as a "border city" straddling the nations of Midlands and Appalachia.

stl is certainly a wacky convergence zone on a number of levels. a good "trip" is peeling off 44 or 64 onto 141 and heading south and then off the main drag into the winding ozark foothills with weird ranchhouse villages in ozark-like hollers on private drives/subdvisions that are near-fiefdoms and hilltop ozarkian bungalows, and then winding your way over to 55 and then back up through soulard or something. weird as hell.

not entirely unlike the knobtown thing but further from the city.

i don't know if that map of missouri is really all that accurate but i'm not sure exactly what i would do about missouri, anyway...