Politics

Come here to talk about topics that are not related to development, or even Kansas City.
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grovester
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Re: Politics

Post by grovester »

If Trump was still around NATO would be in tatters, Ukraine would be toast and the Baltic States would be on the chopping block. Not sure who thinks that would be a good situation.

Do I care if our bloated defense budget covers NATO shortfalls, No.
Do I think our bloated defense budget would be smaller if those countries upped their contributions, No.
Do I think US taxpayers would get some windfall if those countries upped their contributions, No.

You guys would have been hilarious during WW2 and your heads would have exploded during the Marshall Plan.

But I agree, this is a dumb topic for a KC Development board.
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Politics

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

grovester wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:55 pm You guys would have been hilarious during WW2 and your heads would have exploded during the Marshall Plan.
I mean, this is an apples to oranges comparison here but alright…
mean
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Re: Politics

Post by mean »

DColeKC wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:28 pm And if we dare bring these facts up, we're the bad guys all over again.
The facts aren't a problem, they are facts. The problem is what to do about them, and if you want to be a bad guy, maybe suggest withdrawing all support for NATO and ceasing support for Ukraine. Then, maybe.
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Politics

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mean wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:53 pm
DColeKC wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:28 pm And if we dare bring these facts up, we're the bad guys all over again.
The facts aren't a problem, they are facts. The problem is what to do about them, and if you want to be a bad guy, maybe suggest withdrawing all support for NATO and ceasing support for Ukraine. Then, maybe.
That suggestion wasn’t made by anyone though, merely that the top players of Europe contribute an absolutely pathetic amount to the organization but benefit greatly from its existence.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Politics

Post by beautyfromashes »

grovester wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:55 pm Do I care if our bloated defense budget covers NATO shortfalls, No.
Do I think our bloated defense budget would be smaller if those countries upped their contributions, No.
Do I think US taxpayers would get some windfall if those countries upped their contributions, No.
I think you only have to look at the massive deficits in our country compared to the massive surpluses and money for social programs in European countries to see that your assessment is likely wrong. We buy aircraft carriers (12 of them) while they provide health care and paid time off. They buy mass transit systems while we buy covid vaccinations for the third-world (10x the meager donations that the EU sent).
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Re: Politics

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

It's true at the same time that Euro's need to heavily step up their game for NATO and not abuse the system of it, and also that we should be helping Ukraine from falling.
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grovester
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Re: Politics

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Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:12 pm
grovester wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:55 pm You guys would have been hilarious during WW2 and your heads would have exploded during the Marshall Plan.
I mean, this is an apples to oranges comparison here but alright…
Not really. In all 3 the US carried a heavier financial burden while Europe dealt with other burdens.
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grovester
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Re: Politics

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beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:24 am
grovester wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:55 pm Do I care if our bloated defense budget covers NATO shortfalls, No.
Do I think our bloated defense budget would be smaller if those countries upped their contributions, No.
Do I think US taxpayers would get some windfall if those countries upped their contributions, No.
I think you only have to look at the massive deficits in our country compared to the massive surpluses and money for social programs in European countries to see that your assessment is likely wrong. We buy aircraft carriers (12 of them) while they provide health care and paid time off. They buy mass transit systems while we buy covid vaccinations for the third-world (10x the meager donations that the EU sent).
We're not going to get better social safety net just because Europe kicks in more money for NATO.

Our defense will always swallow a huge chunk of the budget precisely so it can't be spent on society. The GOP insists, during every budget negotiation, that defense gets a dollar for every dollar spent on non-defense items.

This year they demanded more than equal match and got it.
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Politics

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

grovester wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:35 am
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:12 pm
grovester wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:55 pm You guys would have been hilarious during WW2 and your heads would have exploded during the Marshall Plan.
I mean, this is an apples to oranges comparison here but alright…
Not really. In all 3 the US carried a heavier financial burden while Europe dealt with other burdens.
Rebuilding after a world war that ravaged your continent, and failing to meet financial obligations because it’s politically unsavory to your populace until a neighboring conflict are not at all the same comparison…
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Re: Politics

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beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:03 pm
DColeKC wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:28 pm And if we dare bring these facts up, we're the bad guys all over again.
This is the absolute only reason Trump won his first election. People wanted someone who didn't care what other countries thought about us and did what was in the countries singular best interest. He came in as basically a version of Woodrow Wilson or Herbert Hoover wanting to isolate America from the world or at least get like funding from other countries for what we do around the world. You'd have to think if he was President now that we would be less likely to ship huge amounts of military hardware to fight the Russians, they would conquer Ukraine easily and continue on until Europe decided to respond. They would have gotten to Germany's doorstep before that happened. Of course, Biden's response and expenditure probably puts Taiwan in play for the Chinese. I don't think we can fight two sub-Super powers on two fronts alone without the help of partners, and they would be very reluctant to cross China.
Or maybe Ukraine invasion wouldn't have happened since Trump and Putin are like totally best friends. ;)
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DColeKC
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Re: Politics

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grovester wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:55 pm If Trump was still around NATO would be in tatters, Ukraine would be toast and the Baltic States would be on the chopping block. Not sure who thinks that would be a good situation.

Do I care if our bloated defense budget covers NATO shortfalls, No.
Do I think our bloated defense budget would be smaller if those countries upped their contributions, No.
Do I think US taxpayers would get some windfall if those countries upped their contributions, No.

You guys would have been hilarious during WW2 and your heads would have exploded during the Marshall Plan.

But I agree, this is a dumb topic for a KC Development board.
This is the politics section of the development forum. If it's not your thing, stay in the topics specifically about development.

How fucking hard is that?
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DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

The military industrial complex is real but I don't complain too much about defense spending. I tend to like our record of only being attacked on our soil a very few times. Our massive defense budget combined with all our scary guns makes any kind of land invasion extremely unlikely.

European countries toss all their eggs in the social programs basket and they're rolling the dice by doing so. Of course they know our bloated defense budget will come to the rescue if needed.
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grovester
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Re: Politics

Post by grovester »

DColeKC wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:17 pm
grovester wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:55 pm If Trump was still around NATO would be in tatters, Ukraine would be toast and the Baltic States would be on the chopping block. Not sure who thinks that would be a good situation.

Do I care if our bloated defense budget covers NATO shortfalls, No.
Do I think our bloated defense budget would be smaller if those countries upped their contributions, No.
Do I think US taxpayers would get some windfall if those countries upped their contributions, No.

You guys would have been hilarious during WW2 and your heads would have exploded during the Marshall Plan.

But I agree, this is a dumb topic for a KC Development board.
This is the politics section of the development forum. If it's not your thing, stay in the topics specifically about development.

How fucking hard is that?
Be better if it was KC politics was all I was saying, chill.
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DColeKC
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Re: Politics

Post by DColeKC »

grovester wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:31 pm
DColeKC wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:17 pm
grovester wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:55 pm If Trump was still around NATO would be in tatters, Ukraine would be toast and the Baltic States would be on the chopping block. Not sure who thinks that would be a good situation.

Do I care if our bloated defense budget covers NATO shortfalls, No.
Do I think our bloated defense budget would be smaller if those countries upped their contributions, No.
Do I think US taxpayers would get some windfall if those countries upped their contributions, No.

You guys would have been hilarious during WW2 and your heads would have exploded during the Marshall Plan.

But I agree, this is a dumb topic for a KC Development board.
This is the politics section of the development forum. If it's not your thing, stay in the topics specifically about development.

How fucking hard is that?
Be better if it was KC politics was all I was saying, chill.
Frustrated. You're the 5th or so person to complain about the politics section on here and I've not read any rules saying that only KC related politics that impact development are to be discussed.

If we only discussed KC politics, it would be like watching paint dry. Every time a good and interesting conversation takes off in here, someone has to try and shut it down.

I do agree with you about Trump being in power and where we'd be. Not anywhere good, that's for sure.
mean
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Re: Politics

Post by mean »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:09 pm
mean wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:53 pm
DColeKC wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:28 pm And if we dare bring these facts up, we're the bad guys all over again.
The facts aren't a problem, they are facts. The problem is what to do about them, and if you want to be a bad guy, maybe suggest withdrawing all support for NATO and ceasing support for Ukraine. Then, maybe.
That suggestion wasn’t made by anyone though, merely that the top players of Europe contribute an absolutely pathetic amount to the organization but benefit greatly from its existence.
That seems to be an option the Trump wing of the republican party is likely to entertain, their guy seemed to want out of NATO entirely.

Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth here though, just suggesting ways to be a bad guy in case anyone was interested in actually becoming the victim of derision they seem to so desperately want to be.
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Politics

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

Fair enough. I would never suggest withdrawing from NATO, just pressure allies to actually contribute what they’re supposed to be to the alliance.
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Re: Politics

Post by mean »

I totally agree, and I would hope like hell that in the face of what Russia is doing in Ukraine that they take the threat on their collective doorstep seriously.
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Re: Politics

Post by beautyfromashes »

mean wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:30 am That seems to be an option the Trump wing of the republican party is likely to entertain, their guy seemed to want out of NATO entirely.

Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth here though, just suggesting ways to be a bad guy in case anyone was interested in actually becoming the victim of derision they seem to so desperately want to be.
We're seeing a huge new wave of US nationalism in politics and it's not just Trump, though I think he made it a reality that it's a political messaging winner. Our leaders are starting to see other world subpowers as competition instead of trying to lead them in coalition. This is evidenced with Biden cutting the feet out of the Europeans with $500B in subsidies to green energy companies in the Build Back Better plan. Europe is scrambling because of it, knowing they will lose production and technology development to America. The war in Ukraine, while noble in its scope of defending the country will be an absolute boom for arms manufacturers in our country. All of the countries donating equipment will look to replace it after this is gone and with extra hardware for their own defense. They won't purchase from Germany who right now is holding their tanks hostage and they sure won't look to Russia whose equipment has been seen as subpar. It will be very interesting to see what Europe looks like in a generation. Their population is aging and dropping, they seem to be behind in technology and they are very limited on resources.
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Re: Politics

Post by mean »

I'm not sure I'd call it huge, but it's definitely there, and I think to some degree it can be traced back to angst related to the earlier discussion about the EU powers appearing to be complacent about their own defense needs and seeming to be content to let us pay for it, and a far right sense of "fairness" which seems to consist of "othering" non-whites (or in this case, non-Americans) and then viewing them with contempt when they get anything they don't "deserve" in the minds of the right. Which I'm of two minds about, I mean, while I agree to some degree with the nationalist / isolationist view in the sense that it would probably be better in a lot of ways if things were more equitably split, it's also not like it is necessarily inherently bad for the US in general to have a ridiculously disproportionate share of the financial responsibility, spending it on domestically produced weapons tech, tanks, planes, bombs, guns, drones, along with training etc.

Can you imagine, for example, the US gets drawn into or otherwise initiates a conflict, and rolls out decrepit, poorly maintained cold war-era hardware, manned by troops who barely knew how to operate it? I mean, obviously not, and it's not hard to draw a line between this fact and our insane spending. So, like with anything, it's not really a matter of either black or white, but deciding precisely which shade of grey makes the most sense. Unfortunately, nuance and rational intellectual discussion appear to be a distant memory.

I agree, though, it will be interesting to see how this plays out over time, and I can't disagree that Russia may have made a horrible mistake (from their perspective) in terms of how much of an impact this conflict will have on the US military-industrial complex and general military superiority over the next few decades.
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Re: Politics

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mean wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:27 pm ...it's also not like it is necessarily inherently bad for the US in general to have a ridiculously disproportionate share of the financial responsibility, spending it on domestically produced weapons tech, tanks, planes, bombs, guns, drones, along with training etc.
True, but the game has intrinsically changed with this war and other recent financial news. It used to be that countries in Europe, and other parts of the world, would try to usurp the power of America by purchasing weapons from other supplier countries and chipping away at America financial power by holding certain resources hostage or working with other sub-world powers to move around us. This really is becoming harder to do now. No one will purchase gas and oil from Russia in the near future. China's economy is proving to be vulnerable after all. Other economy investments are showing to be much more risky than they appeared to be. So, the point is that the erosion of America as the only world superpower is ending. More investment capital in our government and companies will require lower rates of return because the alternatives carry much higher risk. Production overseas will falter because the stability of property rights will prove hollow compared to here. I really think we're moving towards a post-WWII style economic boom. China production will wane. Resource production will stay stateside. Returns will skyrocket. Unfortunately, war and instability is good for America.
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