Politics

[Anthony_Hugo98]

...it's also not like it is necessarily inherently bad for the US in general to have a ridiculously disproportionate share of the financial responsibility, spending it on domestically produced weapons tech, tanks, planes, bombs, guns, drones, along with training etc.

True, but the game has intrinsically changed with this war and other recent financial news. It used to be that countries in Europe, and other parts of the world, would try to usurp the power of America by purchasing weapons from other supplier countries and chipping away at America financial power by holding certain resources hostage or working with other sub-world powers to move around us. This really is becoming harder to do now. No one will purchase gas and oil from Russia in the near future. China's economy is proving to be vulnerable after all. Other economy investments are showing to be much more risky than they appeared to be. So, the point is that the erosion of America as the only world superpower is ending. More investment capital in our government and companies will require lower rates of return because the alternatives carry much higher risk. Production overseas will falter because the stability of property rights will prove hollow compared to here. I really think we're moving towards a post-WWII style economic boom. China production will wane. Resource production will stay stateside. Returns will skyrocket. Unfortunately, war and instability is good for America.

We always have been a wartime economy, the plus side is war is becoming more tame as time progresses

[beautyfromashes]

We always have been a wartime economy, the plus side is war is becoming more tame as time progresses

Europe hasn't really been since the fall of the Iron Curtain. They've basically cheated on their defense spending to cover Eastern Europe reintroduction, joint trade development and expansion and social programs. We're going to see MASSIVE defense spending in Europe that will have to come from American suppliers. Hopefully, it will balance out the debt obligations of countries to be more equitable and allow for more social spending in our country to match what is provided by other, even less developed, countries.

[FangKC]

Four Former KC Mayors Talk Shop at Plaza Library Event

On the city’s relationship with the state:

James: “Kansas City ought to break away from the state of Missouri and become its own kingdom.

“When Mayor Barnes was mayor, Jefferson City wasn’t the Jefferson City it is today…now, it’s all about us vs them. and a lot of the decisions that are made are made for political reasons.

“If you spend any time in Jefferson you’ll note the hostility that exists between the legislature and Kansas City and the legislature and St. Louis because the cities are not kind to their political beliefs.

“The best you can do in Jefferson City as a Democrat or anybody who’s not a conservative Republican is to try to stop bad stuff from happening.”

https://cityscenekc.com/four-former-kc- ... ary-event/

[phuqueue]

Moving this to the cesspool thread because it is getting away from the specific topic of the Grand closures and has a lot of potential to run so much farther off the rails.

But I suspect the movement overall discouraged people from becoming police officers. Thus, I think it has to be at least part of the reason for the current staffing shortages.

But on the other hand, a lot of places are short staffed these days, not just the police. So what do I know?

I wasn't originally going to respond to this because I think your second line there answers your first one already, but just yesterday I came across a couple relevant articles, albeit not from KC.

In Portland, the police apparently gutted their own traffic enforcement division in response to a minor budget cut (in line with cuts that were made across the board to all city departments, and much less than what "defunders" actually wanted to cut from the police). They then went and publicized that there was only one guy handling traffic enforcement for the entire city, with the explicit goal of tying the budget cut to the defund movement (though, again, it was not) and getting the money restored. This led to what the police themselves described as "a record-setting number of fatalities." To Portland police, getting their budget back was more important than people's lives. So does the defund movement have something to do with staffing shortages and lack of traffic enforcement? Maybe, but not necessarily in the way that you're thinking.

And in Seattle, the PD apparently internally agreed with the defund movement, even if externally they were staunchly opposed (and, like Portland, threatened to cut traffic enforcement in the face of budget cuts):

In results from a June 19, 2020, internal survey, never released until now, SPD’s top brass agreed with Defund. SPD leadership had already made recommendations that at least 12 functional “areas of service” within the department — such as harbor patrol, the Office of Police Accountability (OPA), crisis intervention and homelessness outreach — would actually be better served by civilian staff than sworn police officers.

According to emails sent by Angela Socci, SPD’s executive director for budget and finance, SPD command staff were asked to rank each area of service and “consider whether each sworn function is BEST responded to by a sworn law enforcement officer or whether a different professional expertise is better equipped,” scoring their choices on a 0 to 100 scale.

In the survey, 12 other functional areas of service received mixed survey results and were scored “undetermined.” In total, 11 out of 35 areas of service were voted as being best handled by sworn officers by SPD’s top brass. The results indicate broad acceptance among SPD leadership of the idea that civilianizing major service areas was not only feasible but “BEST.”

[Cratedigger]

I really wish the “Defund” movement had found a better way to message their goal. Defund is such a charged word and not necessarily an accurate term for the reallocation of resources they were wanting

[TheSmokinPun]

The media pushed the whole defund thing more than any movement did. There really wasn't a movement either, people just wanted reforms from police departments & the police reacted with "SO YOU DON'T WANT US AT ALL? NO POLICE OR ANYTHING!"

[DColeKC]

Regardless of the defund or reallocate funds which was the rebuttal offered by those challenged on the topic. Who wants to be a cop these days? The overall attitude by the loud minority in this country has turned the profession from honorable to hated. Many cops wanted out and left while others didn’t even get started.

Everyone can agree bad cops need punishment but somehow we got to this point to where millions of people think all cops are evil and bad people. It’s not shocking to see massive staffing shortages. You might die at work and you get no respect.

[phuqueue]

You can die at work at any job, and it's a lot more likely to happen in plenty of other jobs than to cops. How much respect do you show to your garbage man? His job is much more dangerous than police work, and it's a more vital social service, too.

[AllThingsKC]

I don't know that trash collectors have a "more dangerous" job than police. But it's certainly a dangerous job.

Maybe we should defund the trash collectors because #ATCAB (All Trash Collectors Are Bastards). Then we can wonder why nobody wants to be a trash collector like it's some big mystery. (I'm kidding with this, of course.)

[phuqueue]

According to BLS, refuse and recyclable material collectors are 2.5x more likely to die on the job than cops. I guess if you want to define "more dangerous" in a way that somehow excludes the risk of death, then sure, continue to not know that trash collectors have a more dangerous job than police.

[horizons82]

Fatal injury rate is not the same thing as the inherent danger of the job.

[phuqueue]

It's more than sufficient to respond to the point that "you might die at work"

[DColeKC]

It's more than sufficient to respond to the point that "you might die at work"

Not really. It's sufficient to try and make your point but most people don't leave for work each day knowing that they might have to try and save a life by risking their own. That simple fact you're comparing trash men (people if you must) to cops tells me about all I need to know about your opinion on cops. The fact that you think trash collection is more valuable to society is just liberal insanity but expected from you. Most citizens are capable of taking their trash to a dumpster or disposing of it themselves if we had a nation wide trash collection issues. Who's going to keep us safe without the police? Especially if you were to get your way on gun ownership.

There are just some simple facts here. The overall mainstream media and loud minority of anti-police people in this country has had a negative impact of police departments ability to hit staffing numbers. You can cherry pick certain cities like Portland who might have done something odd or on purpose, but that doesn't explain why we're seeing the same staffing issues across the entire country.

[grovester]

It's more than sufficient to respond to the point that "you might die at work"

... but that doesn't explain why we're seeing the same staffing issues across the entire national workforce.

Fixed your post.

[DColeKC]

It's more than sufficient to respond to the point that "you might die at work"

... but that doesn't explain why we're seeing the same staffing issues across the entire national workforce.

Fixed your post.

No disagreement we have shortages across many industries, but we are talking about the police here. Are we really trying to pretend the anti-police rhetoric and defund movement had no impact on why we are currently understaffed? While it may not be the only factor, it's a factor.

[phuqueue]

It's more than sufficient to respond to the point that "you might die at work"

Not really. It's sufficient to try and make your point but most people don't leave for work each day knowing that they might have to try and save a life by risking their own.

And yet the entire defund movement has been born out of the propensity of cops to save their own lives (whether they're even actually at risk in the first place or not) by taking somebody else's.

That simple fact you're comparing trash men (people if you must) to cops tells me about all I need to know about your opinion on cops. The fact that you think trash collection is more valuable to society is just liberal insanity but expected from you. Most citizens are capable of taking their trash to a dumpster or disposing of it themselves if we had a nation wide trash collection issues.

I suspect that across human history poor sanitation has killed orders of magnitude more people than violent crime. The reason you have trouble acknowledging this is that we have an effective solution to poor sanitation, so you have never had to live with it, but we have a self-evidently ineffective solution to violent crime, which is why you are all worked up about it.

Who's going to keep us safe without the police? Especially if you were to get your way on gun ownership.

lol -- without hundreds of millions of guns out there, we would have dramatically less need for police to "keep us safe" than we do now. And police themselves would probably appreciate it (and be a lot less trigger happy) if they didn't have to treat every person they interact with as a potential deadly threat.

There are just some simple facts here. The overall mainstream media and loud minority of anti-police people in this country has had a negative impact of police departments ability to hit staffing numbers. You can cherry pick certain cities like Portland who might have done something odd or on purpose, but that doesn't explain why we're seeing the same staffing issues across the entire country.

... but that doesn't explain why we're seeing the same staffing issues across the entire national workforce.

Fixed your post.

No disagreement we have shortages across many industries, but we are talking about the police here. Are we really trying to pretend the anti-police rhetoric and defund movement had no impact on why we are currently understaffed? While it may not be the only factor, it's a factor.

I'm sure that if you just keep insisting you're right it will eventually come true. It's kinda like the Secret but for internet message board arguments.

[DColeKC]

It's more than sufficient to respond to the point that "you might die at work"

Not really. It's sufficient to try and make your point but most people don't leave for work each day knowing that they might have to try and save a life by risking their own.

And yet the entire defund movement has been born out of the propensity of cops to save their own lives (whether they're even actually at risk in the first place or not) by taking somebody else's.

That simple fact you're comparing trash men (people if you must) to cops tells me about all I need to know about your opinion on cops. The fact that you think trash collection is more valuable to society is just liberal insanity but expected from you. Most citizens are capable of taking their trash to a dumpster or disposing of it themselves if we had a nation wide trash collection issues.

I suspect that across human history poor sanitation has killed orders of magnitude more people than violent crime. The reason you have trouble acknowledging this is that we have an effective solution to poor sanitation, so you have never had to live with it, but we have a self-evidently ineffective solution to violent crime, which is why you are all worked up about it.

Who's going to keep us safe without the police? Especially if you were to get your way on gun ownership.

lol -- without hundreds of millions of guns out there, we would have dramatically less need for police to "keep us safe" than we do now. And police themselves would probably appreciate it (and be a lot less trigger happy) if they didn't have to treat every person they interact with as a potential deadly threat.

There are just some simple facts here. The overall mainstream media and loud minority of anti-police people in this country has had a negative impact of police departments ability to hit staffing numbers. You can cherry pick certain cities like Portland who might have done something odd or on purpose, but that doesn't explain why we're seeing the same staffing issues across the entire country.

Fixed your post.

No disagreement we have shortages across many industries, but we are talking about the police here. Are we really trying to pretend the anti-police rhetoric and defund movement had no impact on why we are currently understaffed? While it may not be the only factor, it's a factor.

I'm sure that if you just keep insisting you're right it will eventually come true. It's kinda like the Secret but for internet message board arguments.

Yes, humans have a tendency to value their own lives over others when put into life or death situations.

No argument proper sanitation is important but this is such a flawed argument. Comparing other needed services to a police department is weird. We need police, we need sanitation, we need public water works, we need healthcare and on and on.

Considering property crime is the most common crime committed in this country, what would be stopping those committing the crimes if there were no guns and no police? Honor? Morals? Words? Trust? Let me guess, let's fix poverty so people won't have a reason to steal?!

I'm not insisting I'm right. You're the one refusing to acknowledge the truth, which is an overall character trait of yours.

"Multiple experts attribute the recruiting challenge – that fewer people are willing to be police officers in 2023 – to increased external scrutiny and reputational harm to the overall profession. Some note that the lack of job flexibility, demanding hours, and the need to work on holidays (especially for junior officers) contribute to the crisis.

"Media coverage has led many young people to view police differently than their parents' generation may have," International Association of Chiefs of Police president John Letteney said. "And a lot of officers think their job has gotten more difficult since high profile use of force incidents."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-depart ... d=98363458

“When you have what looks like a wholesale abandonment of law and order, it makes [officers] feel less relevant professionally,” Johnson said. “When I talk to police officers who are policing in left-leaning or liberal cities, they are much more likely to be disenchanted with policing. I think it’s entirely about a sense of professional esteem and not being considered the bad guys.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ng-reform/

“Well, right now it’s not a very desirable job,” John McNesby, head of the Philadelphia Fraternal Order of Police (FOP), told CNN. “Everything that’s been going on around the country for the last couple of years. … But right now, I mean just getting people to apply is a monster in itself.”

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/02/us/polic ... index.html

This isn't me trying to make excuses for cops who do the job badly or with criminal intent. Bad cops and excessive force have played a role here too, but there's just no denying that the media and vocal minorities reaction over the last few years has seriously contributed to the hiring issues.

[phuqueue]

Well I for one am shocked that a bunch of cops think the problem with their profession is that people are too mean to cops

[DColeKC]

Well I for one am shocked that a bunch of cops think the problem with their profession is that people are too mean to cops

Probably about as shocked as I am that you can’t bring yourself to admit that the overall attitude towards police by those on the left is a contributing factor in PD’s inability to fill vacancies.

[phuqueue]

It’s not about “admitting.” I think it would be great if the left had a fraction of the power you attribute to it. If the police were willfully defunding themselves because they had been cowed by the defund movement, that would be super cool. Not as cool as a deliberate, democratically-controlled defunding with a plan to redistribute the funds appropriately, but still pretty cool. But all of these cops can’t stop going on national news to whine about how defund has decimated their ranks precisely because it’s not true. Defund isn’t popular enough to have that kind of power, but playing up the same staffing shortages hitting every other government agency and the private sector as being defund’s fault is an easy (and successful) strategy for getting more money specifically because police still actually enjoy broad support from a majority of the country. Unfortunately I just don’t think there is anything here for me to “admit,” and if there is, the proof is not statements from a bunch of cops.