KCRag Forum

Here's the fundamental problem for suburban LRT:

You have to drive your car to park at the rail station. That's 10 mins. Then you sit on it as it stops every 2 mins at about 50 stops until finally an hour later you end up in downtown. Then you have to walk or take a streetcar to your exact destination within the downtown. That's another 10-15 mins. That's well over an hour in total.

Or you could just get in the car and be there in 20 mins.

All this^^^ is why it's failing in Denver. It'll be even worse in KC. No suburbanite will ever do all that here or anywhere.

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:33 am Here's the fundamental problem for suburban LRT:

You have to drive your car to park at the rail station. That's 10 mins. Then you sit on it as it stops every 2 mins at about 50 stops until finally an hour later you end up in downtown. Then you have to walk or take a streetcar to your exact destination within the downtown. That's another 10-15 mins. That's well over an hour in total.

Or you could just get in the car and be there in 20 mins.

All this^^^ is why it's failing in Denver. It'll be even worse in KC. No suburbanite will ever do all that here or anywhere.

It may make sense though for people living within walking distance to the line though, so having a dense half mile corridor around the train would help that’s walkable. Also getting rid of free parking in the city and suddenly the cost of driving becomes more identifiable.

I do think it should be urban first though

Riverite wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:55 am

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:33 am Here's the fundamental problem for suburban LRT:

You have to drive your car to park at the rail station. That's 10 mins. Then you sit on it as it stops every 2 mins at about 50 stops until finally an hour later you end up in downtown. Then you have to walk or take a streetcar to your exact destination within the downtown. That's another 10-15 mins. That's well over an hour in total.

Or you could just get in the car and be there in 20 mins.

All this^^^ is why it's failing in Denver. It'll be even worse in KC. No suburbanite will ever do all that here or anywhere.

It may make sense though for people living within walking distance to the line though, so having a dense half mile corridor around the train would help that’s walkable. Also getting rid of free parking in the city and suddenly the cost of driving becomes more identifiable.

I do think it should be urban first though

Any value to going further north than NKC will lay in the ability to develop or redevelop along North Oak in a dense manner. If we can get TOD right up along the line then it’s worth it. Whatever the next project after NKC is in the northland, it should be a modest extension and not all the way to the airport or something.

The last proper LRT proposal (2008) went to North Oak & Vivion.

https://www.kcata.org/transit-initiatives/light_rail

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:32 am The last proper LRT proposal (2008) went to North Oak & Vivion.

https://www.kcata.org/transit-initiatives/light_rail

This makes me so sad. KC would likely be expanding this by now.

GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:52 am

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:32 am The last proper LRT proposal (2008) went to North Oak & Vivion.

https://www.kcata.org/transit-initiatives/light_rail

This makes me so sad. KC would likely be expanding this by now.

Yes, give KC the opportunity to pass up an opportunity and we'll take it!

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:32 am

GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:52 am

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:32 am The last proper LRT proposal (2008) went to North Oak & Vivion.

https://www.kcata.org/transit-initiatives/light_rail

This makes me so sad. KC would likely be expanding this by now.

Yes, give KC the opportunity to pass up an opportunity and we'll take it!

I think you just create our next motto

FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:12 am Any value to going further north than NKC will lay in the ability to develop or redevelop along North Oak in a dense manner. If we can get TOD right up along the line then it’s worth it. Whatever the next project after NKC is in the northland, it should be a modest extension and not all the way to the airport or something.

I think the question is: Do we have the ability or will to create the dense development that you talk about on our own in anticipation of a future line to the airport or do you build the line to spur the dense development that you desire?

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:03 am

FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:12 am Any value to going further north than NKC will lay in the ability to develop or redevelop along North Oak in a dense manner. If we can get TOD right up along the line then it’s worth it. Whatever the next project after NKC is in the northland, it should be a modest extension and not all the way to the airport or something.

I think the question is: Do we have the ability or will to create the dense development that you talk about on our own in anticipation of a future line to the airport or do you build the line to spur the dense development that you desire?

I would think there would have to be some type of overlay to get it going in the right direction. Not sure the market is going to find its own way to what we need in that area.

FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:45 am

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:03 am

FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:12 am Any value to going further north than NKC will lay in the ability to develop or redevelop along North Oak in a dense manner. If we can get TOD right up along the line then it’s worth it. Whatever the next project after NKC is in the northland, it should be a modest extension and not all the way to the airport or something.

I think the question is: Do we have the ability or will to create the dense development that you talk about on our own in anticipation of a future line to the airport or do you build the line to spur the dense development that you desire?

I would think there would have to be some type of overlay to get it going in the right direction. Not sure the market is going to find its own way to what we need in that area.

I'd agree with that at a minimum. The city needs to put some concrete money on the table to make others start doing the same, some strong signal on what the future of the line in the Northland will be.

Forgive me if this is an obvious question. Since Burlington and Swift are only 3 blocks apart, why not go North on Burlington and loop south on Swift? That would basically cover the spine of NKC and serve both major streets.

Any future expansion/extension north could just go on from Burlington.

Karambit25 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:11 pm Forgive me if this is an obvious question. Since Burlington and Swift are only 3 blocks apart, why not go North on Burlington and loop south on Swift? That would basically cover the spine of NKC and serve both major streets.

Any future expansion/extension north could just go on from Burlington.

Loop's are not great transit

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:32 am

GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:52 am

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:32 am The last proper LRT proposal (2008) went to North Oak & Vivion.

https://www.kcata.org/transit-initiatives/light_rail

This makes me so sad. KC would likely be expanding this by now.

Yes, give KC the opportunity to pass up an opportunity and we'll take it!

Dave, if you ever run for City Council, this should be your slogan.

Ha! You should know that I have completely ruled that out. Who wants to be part of such a shit show?

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:58 pm

FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:45 am

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:03 am
I think the question is: Do we have the ability or will to create the dense development that you talk about on our own in anticipation of a future line to the airport or do you build the line to spur the dense development that you desire?

I would think there would have to be some type of overlay to get it going in the right direction. Not sure the market is going to find its own way to what we need in that area.

I'd agree with that at a minimum. The city needs to put some concrete money on the table to make others start doing the same, some strong signal on what the future of the line in the Northland will be.

Agreed. Is all I"m saying is let's start developing and planning based on the idea of transit first, North Oak Max/Streetcar, whatever. So we can overlay appropriate density and road improvements to meet that hopeful improvements. For example, we shouldn't invest millions in roundabouts or land re-surfacing if we are going to add streetcar there and we can start planning appropriate utility work, etc. way in advance. We've found out via the Main Extension that a even a future streetcar line increases property value and drives development in anticipation of rail. When we get around to extending the streetcar north, it would be in smaller chunks, Vivion, then Gladstone, etc. No need to do it all at once but once you get started, I think the density will follow.

GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:52 am

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:32 am The last proper LRT proposal (2008) went to North Oak & Vivion.

https://www.kcata.org/transit-initiatives/light_rail

This makes me so sad. KC would likely be expanding this by now.

Counterpoint: if we passed it & it doesn't do well, then we never get the streetcar or any type of expansions. And then we're screwed.

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:55 pm

GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:52 am

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:32 am The last proper LRT proposal (2008) went to North Oak & Vivion.

https://www.kcata.org/transit-initiatives/light_rail

This makes me so sad. KC would likely be expanding this by now.

Counterpoint: if we passed it & it doesn't do well, then we never get the streetcar or any type of expansions. And then we're screwed.

Counter Point: it will take us a minimum 20 years to build an equivalent system. probably more

Regarding some of this previous talk about drive vs train time. You should all be praying for center running, dedicated lane, and high degree of signal priority for northland expansion or it will be next to pointless.

I’m losing brain cells reading some of the comments on the interactive map the KCStreetcar has for north rail.

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:24 am I’m losing brain cells reading some of the comments on the interactive map the KCStreetcar has for north rail.

Hmm gonna pass on that one.