Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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earthling
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by earthling »

Pros and Cons to both. I don't think center running is objectively better in most cases (for local service) but may make more sense for this stretch.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by KCPowercat »

This is too early to probably even discuss but would every streetcar take every trip across the river and into the riverfront? I could see the NKC line being like every other but that adds complexity to riders they don't have now. What would the potential additional time to trip be going to NKC and riverfront? Thinking like 30 minutes?
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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KCPowercat wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:26 pm This is too early to probably even discuss but would every streetcar take every trip across the river and into the riverfront? I could see the NKC line being like every other but that adds complexity to riders they don't have now. What would the potential additional time to trip be going to NKC and riverfront? Thinking like 30 minutes?
It’s been said through the years that some will go rm to riverfront. Some go rm to NKC.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by daGOAT »

center running has a better chance to be upgrade into true LRT in the future.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by normalthings »

NKC Segment

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NKC Stations
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Bridge

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Image
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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daGOAT wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:04 pm center running has a better chance to be upgrade into true LRT in the future.
Looks like the stations will be built up to LRT standards.


NorthRail Re-visited proposes 19' wide station platforms.

References 15' for center LRT platforms
https://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/t ... 61-018.pdf

Phoenix LRT Designs: 16' for most stations and 18' for high traffic
https://www.valleymetro.org/sites/defau ... y_2018.pdf
Last edited by normalthings on Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by earthling »

^With the potential for LRT to KCI in future maybe it does make more sense to treat this as a commuter line right now in consideration for the long run. And center running more appropriate for commuter lines than maybe for local service. Curb side can share with existing buses for overflow/event days as well, so makes more sense for Midtown.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by daGOAT »

Smart. Although I'm not a fan of only having one lane dedicated for trains on the HOA bridge or sidewalks on the eastside of Burlington being only 5.5"
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by AlkaliAxel »

We really don't need metro-wide LRT. We need to focus on the urban core streetcars and maybe the northland (since it's still young & growing we could teach it now to learn to adapt to transit) but that's about it.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by daGOAT »

that might be true in 2022 but by 2035 we'll be glad we planted seeds for an easy transition.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by alejandro46 »

daGOAT wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:30 pm that might be true in 2022 but by 2035 we'll be glad we planted seeds for an easy transition.
100%. We can't sell our selves short or think too small. We can lay the foundation for both wider AND denser Kansas City in the Northland, East Side, even JoCo, while also continuing more dense development in the core through good transit and upgrading our pedestrian environment to not be absolutely horrendous to pedestrians.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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alejandro46 wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:36 pm
daGOAT wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:30 pm that might be true in 2022 but by 2035 we'll be glad we planted seeds for an easy transition.
100%. We can't sell our selves short or think too small. We can lay the foundation for both wider AND denser Kansas City in the Northland, East Side, even JoCo, while also continuing more dense development in the core through good transit and upgrading our pedestrian environment to not be absolutely horrendous to pedestrians.
I'm not one for thinking small by any means when it comes to KC dev & strategy. But I can't unsee what I saw in Denver with RTD. And if they can't pull of a good effective LRT, then our people will flip the fuck out if we failed as bad as they have. My biggest worry (which I fully believe would happen) is that the trains will be to slow & stop too often, leading to no ridership and then it will give ammo to the NIMBY people that we should never expand any urban project ever.

In Denver, the car could get you downtown almost a full hour faster than the train. If that *ever* was the case in KC ,even remotely, the train will run empty forever. Not even Denver can beat it, so we'd be screwed.

If we want to spend money on big projects, I'd stick to streetcar & other items before LRT. It's just not needed here or even in places like Denver.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:50 pm We really don't need metro-wide LRT. We need to focus on the urban core streetcars and maybe the northland (since it's still young & growing we could teach it now to learn to adapt to transit) but that's about it.
This is a 70 year investment. think longer term
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by normalthings »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:14 pm
alejandro46 wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:36 pm
daGOAT wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:30 pm that might be true in 2022 but by 2035 we'll be glad we planted seeds for an easy transition.
100%. We can't sell our selves short or think too small. We can lay the foundation for both wider AND denser Kansas City in the Northland, East Side, even JoCo, while also continuing more dense development in the core through good transit and upgrading our pedestrian environment to not be absolutely horrendous to pedestrians.


In Denver, the car could get you downtown almost a full hour faster than the train. If that *ever* was the case in KC ,even remotely, the train will run empty forever. Not even Denver can beat it, so we'd be screwed.
car is faster than streetcar today and will be with umkc. streetcar is more convenient
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by AlkaliAxel »

normalthings wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:38 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:14 pm
alejandro46 wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:36 pm

100%. We can't sell our selves short or think too small. We can lay the foundation for both wider AND denser Kansas City in the Northland, East Side, even JoCo, while also continuing more dense development in the core through good transit and upgrading our pedestrian environment to not be absolutely horrendous to pedestrians.


In Denver, the car could get you downtown almost a full hour faster than the train. If that *ever* was the case in KC ,even remotely, the train will run empty forever. Not even Denver can beat it, so we'd be screwed.
car is faster than streetcar today and will be with umkc. streetcar is more convenient
If you live in urban KC it’s far more convenient to take the streetcar by than drive.

I don’t think that will be the case whatsoever with the suburbs. The difference in car & train would be astronomical. Nothing like the urban streetcar.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by daGOAT »

Alot of Metrolink and Metra ridership doesn't stem from time saving as much as saving money on gas/parking and the simple pleasure of not being the one behind the wheel.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by normalthings »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:34 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:38 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:14 pm



In Denver, the car could get you downtown almost a full hour faster than the train. If that *ever* was the case in KC ,even remotely, the train will run empty forever. Not even Denver can beat it, so we'd be screwed.
car is faster than streetcar today and will be with umkc. streetcar is more convenient
If you live in urban KC it’s far more convenient to take the streetcar by than drive.

I don’t think that will be the case whatsoever with the suburbs. The difference in car & train would be astronomical. Nothing like the urban streetcar.
Maybe it depends on the timing but its not hard to beat the streetcar driving or cycling. During events can beat the SC by walking
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by AlkaliAxel »

normalthings wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:46 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:34 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:38 pm
car is faster than streetcar today and will be with umkc. streetcar is more convenient
If you live in urban KC it’s far more convenient to take the streetcar by than drive.

I don’t think that will be the case whatsoever with the suburbs. The difference in car & train would be astronomical. Nothing like the urban streetcar.
Maybe it depends on the timing but its not hard to beat the streetcar driving or cycling. During events can beat the SC by walking
If the car can shave off only a few minutes in urban core, then it’s easier to just take the streetcar. But if it’s like 45-60 min difference, and you’re a suburbanite- those people are never gonna take that train. That’s what Denver is showing us.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by normalthings »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:54 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:46 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:34 pm
If you live in urban KC it’s far more convenient to take the streetcar by than drive.

I don’t think that will be the case whatsoever with the suburbs. The difference in car & train would be astronomical. Nothing like the urban streetcar.
Maybe it depends on the timing but its not hard to beat the streetcar driving or cycling. During events can beat the SC by walking
If the car can shave off only a few minutes in urban core, then it’s easier to just take the streetcar. But if it’s like 45-60 min difference, and you’re a suburbanite- those people are never gonna take that train. That’s what Denver is showing us.
is that not what I said? Taking the car is faster in the core and the suburbs. The convenience of the the train (not having to drive one's self) is the selling piece not the getting their ASAP. I would also say the convience is destroyed when service is in-consistent (ie. when its curb running and a delivery driver cancels your trip once every other week).
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by AlkaliAxel »

normalthings wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:31 pm
is that not what I said? Taking the car is faster in the core and the suburbs. The convenience of the the train (not having to drive one's self) is the selling piece not the getting their ASAP. I would also say the convience is destroyed when service is in-consistent (ie. when its curb running and a delivery driver cancels your trip once every other week).
Not really. There's a big difference in the car saving you maybe 2 mins if you live in the core, and the car savings 30-60 mins coming from the suburbs. If it's only a 2 min difference & you live in the core, it's not worth it to get your car out. But it will be still worth it to drive from the suburbs. That's why people in Denver won't ride it from the suburbs.
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