Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

[flyingember]

I’m not gonna be picky about the streetcar because I’m glad we have one at all, but I’d prefer we go East-West before going into the northland. I think alot more people need it there than up north, and it would spur badly needed development. I understand it got shot down last time but maybe now it’s different because of the success and expansion of the current one?

NKC is the only place that voted for the train in the 2009 election, they have an unimplemented tax on the books still, and right now they have a council bullish on finding out what it would take.

Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

This is a town with an apartment building going up that’s taller than many recent downtown projects.

NKC really wants the streetcar, and the hardest part of getting to the airport is crossing the river due to the $30m+ price tag with limited ability to capture funds through traditional TDD funding. A wider Northland TDD could hypotehtically help pay for that central spine N Oak - Barry Road - KCI route but never cover the bridge crossing. Lots of room to add density along that area.

This one section is likely the single most difficult section of rail in the city. Build to 32nd and expansion can be done 1-2 miles at a time as money is found. The next section down the line can take it towards Gladstone and the huge redevelopment opportunities up N Oak.

A TDD could never fund it, but paired with upcoming and targeted efforts the corridor could rival midtown in scale. Gladstone is already proving this.

[normalthings]

I think the tax may have been removed at some point

[flyingember]

I think the tax may have been removed at some point

Appears so, it sat on the books for years though. Guess someone decided it couldn’t be legally used for a different plan

[normalthings]

I think the tax may have been removed at some point

Appears so, it sat on the books for years though. Guess someone decided it couldn’t be legally used for a different plan

I had the same idea as you before someone on KCRAG told me that

[flyingember]

I think the tax may have been removed at some point

Appears so, it sat on the books for years though. Guess someone decided it couldn’t be legally used for a different plan

I had the same idea as you before someone on KCRAG told me that

One positive, is NKC is going to be the standard bearer for transit across the city. It’s a town that has its own fiber network, own hospital, it built the first cycle track in the region. It’s proving that a suburb can build dense housing without changing the entire feel of the town.

If it can make improved transit happen it could help with making the argument that other towns can do the same. It’s a similar economic scale to much of the east side too. The town is something like 80% or 90% renters.

Successes build on each other, so supporting this effort is critical to further urban efforts.

[AlkaliAxel]

I would gladly take a NKC streetcar, even thought I think East-West is preferable. Take whatever we can get and keep expanding this thing until we can’t anymore.

[WoodDraw]

Does anyone have the last study handy?

[normalthings]

Does anyone have the last study handy?

Easly found on Google or streetcar website

[flyingember]

Does anyone have the last study handy?

It's on the streetcar website, they have a whole section of studies.
https://kcstreetcar.org/about-streetcar ... r-studies/

[WoodDraw]

I thought there was something after 2014. My bad.

[AlkaliAxel]

There are many disagreements on all the various topics on KCrag.

But in my short time since joining here, the thing I’ve noticed is that the one item everyone seems to be unanimously in agreement on is rail. I’ve never heard anyone say we shouldn’t have it or expand it.

Given this is the case- why not make this the big push project for the next decade? I figure if even with our diverse views here we’re all on board with it here, then it’s probably got alot of support with the public as well.

[normalthings]

There are many disagreements on all the various topics on KCrag.

But in my short time since joining here, the thing I’ve noticed is that the one item everyone seems to be unanimously in agreement on is rail. I’ve never heard anyone say we shouldn’t have it or expand it.

Given this is the case- why not make this the big push project for the next decade? I figure if even with our diverse views here we’re all on board with it here, then it’s probably got alot of support with the public as well.

from what I have seen and read the community is on board with rail, not bus

[mean]

For the record, I argued for a long time before the streetcar existed that expanded bus service (or PRT, of which I was an early advocate) which could actually function to connect people to jobs and whatnot was a better investment than a couple miles of streetcar, and I haven't entirely changed my mind, but Dave talked me into it and I think the results have spoken for themselves. I am not sure how northeast/east side would vote on an expansion out this way now, but the vehemence with which Freedom, Inc. opposed it the first time around was pretty disheartening.

[FangKC]

There still are people on the Historic Northeast neighborhood Facebook pages that are against rail, and the publisher of the neighborhood weekly newspaper snipes about it still.

However, I don't know if the neighborhood would vote down expansion east along Independence Avenue or not. It might pass this time.

[DaveKCMO]

There is a gap between the % of people who support rail transit and the % people willing to pay for it. I've seen the polls outside of the urban core. We've got work to do.

We're in a space now where the exact funding strategy (100% of local funding from a value capture district drawn around the alignment) for the downtown and Main Street extensions are no longer possible due to the high capital cost of streetcar and the low value of property or retail sales tax revenue. It's not very cost effective to build these projects in 0.5-, 2- and 3.5-mile bits (at least if you follow the federal process, which adds cost, time, and complexity).

Also, transit can do more than one thing -- this is primarily a development focused message board (rather than, say transportation equity or job access) so we're literally in a bubble here about rail vs bus.

[FangKC]

My gut has always told me that any extension of the streetcar east from the Downtown Loop would be through the Paseo West neighborhood over to Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences. The purpose of that would be simply to drive new development in Paseo West -- essentially extending downtown east. This is way in the future -- once the East Village and Crossroads, and if the North Loop gets removed and that is developed.

[dukuboy1]

I like the idea of streetcar going East into Paseo West and down Independence Ave. There has been some development around the area and this may be a nice things to sustain it and produce more. Also another Route going East down Linwood would be a good spot as well, with a 3rd (why not go pie in the sky) I line going East on Cleaver Blvd and perhaps creating a station spot by Bruce R Watkins area on the South side of brush creek to Service that entire area. Maybe have a park & ride and have other bus lines from the surrounding area going there. I don't know, just spit balling.

I'd love the NKC extension to end at a station on the North end of Burlington that would serve as a park & ride and even have a place for buses to connect riders to downtown, without having to go all the way downtown.

[flyingember]

There’s two good options along NE 32nd.

It’s possible with another round of train purchases that there will be a need for more storage space and maybe another yard

A combined bus terminal, train yard and parking facility could do well

[alejandro46]

Streetcar is a strong development tool. First build transit, then developers will add density along the line and those people may choose the streetcar who may have the ability to drive instead but instead choose to take a streetcar.

I think many people view the bus service in the metro as a safety net service to get people to and from work and doctor appointments who have no alternative, even though car may be quicker. Is this completely true? I don't know if it is something that is known or even knowable without extensive study. I do know that in many areas the bus trip is multiples longer than by car excluding Main and Prospect max or other shorter distance direct routes in the urban core.

The streetcar up north is an even further leap of faith as its longer distances and lower density, with lower population to pay for.

Hopefully the streetcar will get pushed up to NKC, Linwood to Truman Sports Complex, and West to smaller Kansas cities like downtown Mission and Overland Park via Metcalf. I think a big regional vote is the best way to get there, but who knows how that would do.

Independence Ave already has a very popular bus service, I think if we replace North Loop with at grade independence avenue and we have to rebuild it anyways, would make sense to run streetcar down to the Hardesty Complex.

[flyingember]

There still are people on the Historic Northeast neighborhood Facebook pages that are against rail, and the publisher of the neighborhood weekly newspaper snipes about it still.

However, I don't know if the neighborhood would vote down expansion east along Independence Avenue or not. It might pass this time.

With free bus the voting equation would change a lot away from rail

It feels like the east side focus needs to be that a vote for a train means more bus service, more hours

Use building rail to reallocate busses to frequent short distance routes as a policy

That was one failure of 2014, it was standalone as a plan goes