Phase 2 streetcar on Independence Avenue

[flyingember]

city is close to issuing an RFP for phase 2 study.

good to hear.

this is one of the big phase 2 segments.

my list runs close to the city's but not exact. leave each length to a cost benefit analysis.

As I've said before I always think about jobs and education for expansion. it's an easier sell if you can connect people to the both. But the ability to pass a tax and get funding for an area and help pay for the system should bump a segment up of course.

First expansion:
NKC
Indep Ave
UMKC
12th St, Broadway to Troost.

Second Expansion builds off it:
39th (penn valley to US 71)
Troost (12th St to Clever)
Brookside to 63rd
47th/Clever (Plaza to US 71)

It would give a long spine to redo the bus system with and a number of E-W connections to a future commuter system on US 71.

[bbqboy]

Are you calling Phase and Expansion the same thing, or do you have a different idea?

[flyingember]

Are you calling Phase and Expansion the same thing, or do you have a different idea?

more or less the same.

I like the idea of being aggressive on expansion but expansion should put lots of ideas on the table and build the ones that can get community support and can get funding. Not building to a specific map.

The current phase 2 map seems to waste money on 3 lines in 13 blocks specifically in the NE. I didn't get why 39th didn't make the cut but 12th St did.


I also don't think we have to build as a chunk. If money can be found next year for one expansion line, let's do it. Don't wait to actually build as a single phase.

[earthling]

^May as well dream about a line down every main drag. The reality is that funding will dictate the rollout pace and locations, especially if those along the line fund most/all of it.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

I didn't get why 39th didn't make the cut but 12th St did.

Because Phase 2 are lines that will connect to Phase 1.

[chingon]

So is it possible that a second phase will NOT go to the Plaza? Could the Indy Ave line or the NKC line get funded/voted/built before the UMKC line? I know its not necessarily either/or, but isn't it realistically?

Seems like neglecting how essential that connection is would be the height of folly and the quickest way to cripple/kill rail transit momentum to me.

[flyingember]

I didn't get why 39th didn't make the cut but 12th St did.

Because Phase 2 are lines that will connect to Phase 1.

not relevant to the discussion of picking the best phase 2 lines.

see Seattle for an example of their second phase not connecting to their first.

[flyingember]

So is it possible that a second phase will NOT go to the Plaza? Could the Indy Ave line or the NKC line get funded/voted/built before the UMKC line? I know its not necessarily either/or, but isn't it realistically?

Seems like neglecting how essential that connection is would be the height of folly and the quickest way to cripple/kill rail transit momentum to me.

This is what I wonder too.

All the money spent won't help if the community can't get to the places that the population of the area can get jobs at. If you have 50% of the people skilled for industrial or retail and the system doesn't get to either industry well then I don't know why we would build the line.

I see the NKC segment as critical for a population which doubtless has a higher percentage of industrial workers than the norm. But I can't be certain. I'd like to see a study done on where people work at before this line is finalized and what mode of transportation they take today. This would be the perfect thing to coordinate with each neighborhood.

the bottom of the post is an old list but it gives an order of industries which is helpful for figuring out transit coverage. The 4th one is especially interesting since right now the closest hospitals to the line are 5-7 blocks away.

NKC Hospital is a 470 bed hospital on 72 acres and could convert parking to more medical space. It seems to be the one hospital in KC that could double in size without buying land or tearing down anything.
St. Luke's at the Plaza is 620 beds.
KU Med has 570 beds and 4300 employees
Truman is 160 beds
Children's Mercy is about the same size as Truman Medical.

Combined you're talking something like 10,000+ jobs with a 24x7 coverage in every capacity you can think of from marketing to legal to food service to dock workers to receptionists to parking attendents.

The problem is we're talking something like $1 billion plus a bridge crossing to connect to all 5.

-------------

trade, transportation and utilities: 202,200
government: 143,900
professional and business services: 127,700 (retail?)
educational and health services: 108,900
leisure and hospitality: 92,300 (retail?)
manufacturing: 83,700
financial activities: 70,900
construction and mining: 50,800
information: 45,300
other services: 40,400

[kboish]

I didn't get why 39th didn't make the cut but 12th St did.

Because Phase 2 are lines that will connect to Phase 1.

not relevant to the discussion of picking the best phase 2 lines.

see Seattle for an example of their second phase not connecting to their first.

Disagree. An unconnected 2nd line is a fail IMO. The discussion for phase 2 MUST start with how it connects to Phase 1. Everything needs to be seamless otherwise whats the point? In addition, it just so happens that the areas that make the most sense for Phase 2 connect nicely into Phase 1.

[flyingember]

Disagree. An unconnected 2nd line is a fail IMO. The discussion for phase 2 MUST start with how it connects to Phase 1. Everything needs to be seamless otherwise whats the point? In addition, it just so happens that the areas that make the most sense for Phase 2 connect nicely into Phase 1.

that I agree on.

I disagree that we can't do 39th off Main concurrently with phase 2.

sure, it relies on the UMKC line but we don't need to wait for the UMKC line to be built to plan it.

[DaveKCMO]

seattle has light rail and commuter rail that connect to one or both streetcar lines, not to mention significantly better bus service throughout both corridors.

the city has set the parameters for phase 2 study -- grow in all directions from phase 1, incrementally -- and the RFP is being developed. the real work is organizing supporters within those phase 2 corridors, including the city of north kansas city.

[shinatoo]

Plus, if a second line is disconnected how do you service those units without building a complete duplicate set of maintenance facilities?

[Eon Blue]

Has anybody explored the MoDot aspects of this? Independence Avenue is US 24, which put it under their purview. Does the state have any responsibilities for maintenance or upkeep on the street, or do they give the city any money for it? Would MoDot expected to be an accommodating partner, neutral, or adversarial on any extension? I guess if they've expressed a willingness to discuss utilizing the HOA Bridge for a northern extension they couldn't be too opposed to an Independence Avenue extension.

I'm sure the City has or will do their due diligence on this, but it dawned on me yesterday that I haven't seen it publicly discussed yet. Have I missed anything?

[flyingember]

Plus, if a second line is disconnected how do you service those units without building a complete duplicate set of maintenance facilities?

if the system plans to grow big enough we're going to need more maintenance facilities or else to expand the first ones. the current building will have space for two vehicles being maintained at once.

if that many expansion lines are built there will be a day there's a need to work on 3+ at once

then it becomes a question of do you expand the current facility or build more yards?

[chaglang]

then it becomes a question of do you expand the current facility or build more yards?

I'd think that a single yard would be cheaper. Equipment wouldn't have to be duplicated, fewer buildings to maintain, etc.

[flyingember]

then it becomes a question of do you expand the current facility or build more yards?

I'd think that a single yard would be cheaper. Equipment wouldn't have to be duplicated, fewer buildings to maintain, etc.

yeah, one would hope that could be the case, at least initially

but this is real estate we're talking about. if the owner next door refuses to sell you can't expand.

[DaveKCMO]

keep in mind phase 1 budget is for phase 1 only (and 4 vehicles). the maintenance facility will be finalized during Final Design, which just started. if more storage track can be accommodated at the existing site within the existing budget, i'm sure we'll do that.

as for how US-24 designation would impact this extension, i have asked the question and will post an answer if i get one. my assumption is nothing much would change since MoDOT has purview over all rail lines regardless of type or location in the state (they will do their own safety review of phase 1, for example).

[DaveKCMO]

Phase 2 RFP is on the street:

http://ww4.kcmo.org/ads.nsf/eb0743e765f ... EETCAR.pdf

[DaveKCMO]

BNIM will lead the phase 2 study.

[DaveKCMO]

save the date -- thursday, aug. 8!