Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC
Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:16 pm
Where shall I pile?
https://www.buildkcstreetcar.com/
IIRC. Neighborhood push back against center running, turning lanes, and big reductions to car space. Business pushed back against removing street parking.GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:27 pm The more I look at this, the more it looks like they are doing almost nothing to actually improve Main Street with such a massive once in a lifetime project like this.
Why??? The only part of this that looks like a modern urban street rebuild is the part between 47th and UMKC. The rest looks like they just slapped rail on main street with very little thought. Very little improvement to the pedestrian/cyclist environment or even the aesthetics of Main Street in general.
.....GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:43 pm You should not be just adding track, you are making a major infrastructure modification that should include more than just adding track and stops. Basically just adding wires to the MAX buses. May as well just bought electric trolley buses instead of installing rail.
There has to be a way to make better use of the right of way of a very wide street like Main Street and do more with the sidewalks, bike lanes etc. I guess keeping curb parking and having full access to turn left everywhere has forced this design?
That's what I would hope for. They are leaving room to do it later as each of the curb cuts get taken out etc. But that's gong to take decades to do anything more than a block here and there.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:40 pmIIRC. Neighborhood push back against center running, turning lanes, and big reductions to car space. Business pushed back against removing street parking.GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:27 pm The more I look at this, the more it looks like they are doing almost nothing to actually improve Main Street with such a massive once in a lifetime project like this.
Why??? The only part of this that looks like a modern urban street rebuild is the part between 47th and UMKC. The rest looks like they just slapped rail on main street with very little thought. Very little improvement to the pedestrian/cyclist environment or even the aesthetics of Main Street in general.
Lots of development will occur in the next few years. I prefer leaving spaces marked off at this point. As the area gets built up, they can be quickly converted into bike parking, seating space, outdoor patios, etc. Also seems better to leave as is before it gets ripped apart by construction.
I don't think they are really doing much less than what they did for the starter line. Maybe it's just more apparent now that the road is so much wider?GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:48 pmThat's what I would hope for. They are leaving room to do it later as each of the curb cuts get taken out etc. But that's gong to take decades to do anything more than a block here and there.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:40 pmIIRC. Neighborhood push back against center running, turning lanes, and big reductions to car space. Business pushed back against removing street parking.GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:27 pm The more I look at this, the more it looks like they are doing almost nothing to actually improve Main Street with such a massive once in a lifetime project like this.
Why??? The only part of this that looks like a modern urban street rebuild is the part between 47th and UMKC. The rest looks like they just slapped rail on main street with very little thought. Very little improvement to the pedestrian/cyclist environment or even the aesthetics of Main Street in general.
Lots of development will occur in the next few years. I prefer leaving spaces marked off at this point. As the area gets built up, they can be quickly converted into bike parking, seating space, outdoor patios, etc. Also seems better to leave as is before it gets ripped apart by construction.
I honestly do not know. Did they not have room to do more with the pedestrian/cyclists infrastructure in the corridor or was it due to budget? Are they designing it so that these improvements can be easily implemented after the tram line is built? And why not do it now where it's likely that the existing development is not going to change and then fill in the gaps where future development is likely coming soon.
I know, but I thought they would do more since they have so much more room to work with. Main St downtown carries very little traffic. Actually, they should make it very difficult to drive all the way through on Main street (north of union station) to discourage people from using it for car trips through downtown.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:53 pmI don't think they are really doing much less than what they did for the starter line. Maybe it's just more apparent now that the road is so much wider?GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:48 pmThat's what I would hope for. They are leaving room to do it later as each of the curb cuts get taken out etc. But that's gong to take decades to do anything more than a block here and there.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:40 pm
IIRC. Neighborhood push back against center running, turning lanes, and big reductions to car space. Business pushed back against removing street parking.
Lots of development will occur in the next few years. I prefer leaving spaces marked off at this point. As the area gets built up, they can be quickly converted into bike parking, seating space, outdoor patios, etc. Also seems better to leave as is before it gets ripped apart by construction.
I honestly do not know. Did they not have room to do more with the pedestrian/cyclists infrastructure in the corridor or was it due to budget? Are they designing it so that these improvements can be easily implemented after the tram line is built? And why not do it now where it's likely that the existing development is not going to change and then fill in the gaps where future development is likely coming soon.
In Arnstein's ladder of citizen participation this would be somewhere between Therapy and Informing. I.e., not real citizen participation.KCPowercat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:26 pm if we're at 60% design with this already, what are these comments really going to change at this point?
A mistake I think cycling advocates made was to never propose bike infrastructure on Main because of the pending streetcar. Therefore when street configuration was considered, bikes were not given much priority since Main "wasn't on the proposed bike plan" for the city.GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:03 pmI know, but I thought they would do more since they have so much more room to work with. Main St downtown carries very little traffic. Actually, they should make it very difficult to drive all the way through on Main street (north of union station) to discourage people from using it for car trips through downtown.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:53 pmI don't think they are really doing much less than what they did for the starter line. Maybe it's just more apparent now that the road is so much wider?GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:48 pm
That's what I would hope for. They are leaving room to do it later as each of the curb cuts get taken out etc. But that's gong to take decades to do anything more than a block here and there.
I honestly do not know. Did they not have room to do more with the pedestrian/cyclists infrastructure in the corridor or was it due to budget? Are they designing it so that these improvements can be easily implemented after the tram line is built? And why not do it now where it's likely that the existing development is not going to change and then fill in the gaps where future development is likely coming soon.
In a proper system, I see main street north of union station eventually becoming a transitway with no private vehicles allowed. Wide sidewalks, cycleway and rail. Emergency and delivery vehicles only. Main south of Union Statin will always be a major vehicle arterial, but hopefully the tracks are laid in a way that the sidewalks/cycling infrastructure can be drastically improved relatively quickly and easily. Slow down traffic on it and push through traffic to Broadway, Ghillam or even better SW TFWY, 71 etc. Then it would only need two car lanes, but they could remain 35mph or so.
Even if you don't include bike lanes (a huge mistake IMO), most of Main needs new sidewalks etc. I just do not understand why that is not being redone at the same time. They are probably ripping up water mains and everything else. Now is the time to rebuild the sidewalks and do so in a way that lays the groundwork for a more urban street. There is so much wasted right of way used for turn lanes, or just striped off for nothing.smh wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:55 amA mistake I think cycling advocates made was to never propose bike infrastructure on Main because of the pending streetcar. Therefore when street configuration was considered, bikes were not given much priority since Main "wasn't on the proposed bike plan" for the city.GRID wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:03 pmI know, but I thought they would do more since they have so much more room to work with. Main St downtown carries very little traffic. Actually, they should make it very difficult to drive all the way through on Main street (north of union station) to discourage people from using it for car trips through downtown.normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:53 pm
I don't think they are really doing much less than what they did for the starter line. Maybe it's just more apparent now that the road is so much wider?
In a proper system, I see main street north of union station eventually becoming a transitway with no private vehicles allowed. Wide sidewalks, cycleway and rail. Emergency and delivery vehicles only. Main south of Union Statin will always be a major vehicle arterial, but hopefully the tracks are laid in a way that the sidewalks/cycling infrastructure can be drastically improved relatively quickly and easily. Slow down traffic on it and push through traffic to Broadway, Ghillam or even better SW TFWY, 71 etc. Then it would only need two car lanes, but they could remain 35mph or so.
You assume bike lanes are for commuting the corridor, what about all of the existing businesses and future residents in the corridor who might want to bike through midtown? Not a lot of elevation change between say 31st and 45th.KCPowercat wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:10 am The use of painted stripes is just dumb based on our history. Everyone of them just just be wider sidewalks.
Bike lanes on main is dumb too. Let's use another road. Charlotte/holmes already is a better biking experience with established lanes, less traffic, less elevation.