OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

[DaveKCMO]

It's true that we're experiencing the lowest levels of bus service, but that's entirely due to the staffing crisis. They're working hard to hire and improve pay (see the latest article about the union negotiation just months after the last contract was signed).

The network was redesigned to boost frequency in the urban core where it's needed. That needs to be fully implemented when staffing allows. More flexible services should be deployed in parts of the city like the Northland where sidewalks are rare and distances are farther.

Hopefully that will occur by the time the MSE opens in 2025.

[GRID]

Can probably start by bringing back fares. There is probably a reason that nearly every transit system in the entire world charges fares. For one, most people would much rather pay to have a usable system than have a free system that is not usable. Plus you end up with homeless camping out on buses and trains.

I know KC now has a very small bus system so the fares it collects is probably minimal, but I sure don't see how making it free has helped.

It's 2022 and KC has still not figured out how to regionally fund even a minimal bus system. I just think it's silly that KC's transit has gone from a relatively large bus system that moved probably 80,000 people a day as recent as the 80's-90's to what is now just a streetcar line and few bus routes down troost and prospect. (which have always had high ridership and frequency even prior to max).

[Cratedigger]

Can probably start by bringing back fares. There is probably a reason that nearly every transit system in the entire world charges fares. For one, most people would much rather pay to have a usable system than have a free system that is not usable. Plus you end up with homeless camping out on buses and trains.

I know KC now has a very small bus system so the fares it collects is probably minimal, but I sure don't see how making it free has helped.

It's 2022 and KC has still not figured out how to regionally fund even a minimal bus system. I just think it's silly that KC's transit has gone from a relatively large bus system that moved probably 80,000 people a day as recent as the 80's-90's to what is now just a streetcar line and few bus routes down troost and prospect. (which have always had high ridership and frequency even prior to max).

Freakonomics just did a good podcast on this. Addresses a few of the points you raised. One surprising benefit has been a drastic improvement in driver safety. Most incidents are caused by fare box disputes

[GRID]

Can probably start by bringing back fares. There is probably a reason that nearly every transit system in the entire world charges fares. For one, most people would much rather pay to have a usable system than have a free system that is not usable. Plus you end up with homeless camping out on buses and trains.

I know KC now has a very small bus system so the fares it collects is probably minimal, but I sure don't see how making it free has helped.

It's 2022 and KC has still not figured out how to regionally fund even a minimal bus system. I just think it's silly that KC's transit has gone from a relatively large bus system that moved probably 80,000 people a day as recent as the 80's-90's to what is now just a streetcar line and few bus routes down troost and prospect. (which have always had high ridership and frequency even prior to max).

Freakonomics just did a good podcast on this. Addresses a few of the points you raised. One surprising benefit has been a drastic improvement in driver safety. Most incidents are caused by fare box disputes

Drivers should not have to interact with passengers at all as far as fare collection. Most large bus systems are honor systems where you have to purchase tickets off the bus, have a pass or use your phone/credit card to tap to pay on buses, trams etc. Enforcement is by random checks from transit police. Drivers should be accessible for questions etc, but be behind glass. This is how most transit works in Europe etc, but it's starting to be more of a thing in the USA too.

[FlippantCitizen]

I like the fare free project KC has pursued. The honor system with random fare checks would be 2nd best. Yes common in Europe, though I've never seen a system like that in North America. I'd be interested to know where that is implemented.

Lack of friction when boarding is most important. But lack of any friction what-so-ever in terms of not having to set up or maintain ticket kiosks or interact with them as a rider is great.

I was an infrequent bus rider. Regularly catching 20-30 min waits and need a transfer where there is additional wait. Or walk 20 minutes to avoid transfer but the most direct walking route is largely inhospitable and still might catch a wait. E-bike has completely supplanted the bus in my life this summer. I wish our system would make me want to ride but 30 minute headways is never going to work for me.

[earthling]

There are pros and cons to both approaches. The free fare approach is a good experiment and as Dave said the frequency of service is due to staffing. Focus on frequency in the city core and to airport. Those who want to live in car dependent burbs can have it, maybe they don't deserve decent public transit until building up the environment conducive to it. Those who don't care for car dependency can move to city core.

[FlippantCitizen]

There are pros and cons to both approaches. The free fare approach is a good experiment and as Dave said the frequency of service is due to staffing. Focus on frequency in the city core and to airport. Those who want to live in car dependent burbs can have it, maybe they don't deserve decent public transit until building up the environment conducive to it. Those who don't care for car dependency can move to city core.

Agreed. Retrench and solidify withing the urban core. Provide excellent service where the land use and population density allow and screw everything else. Getting people in Johnson County to ride the bus is pissing into the wind. I'm completely black pilled on any type of suburban bus service. Can we please just get 15 minute or less headways on routes in the urban core? That's frankly the bare minimum. 30 minute headways is an absolute failure and results in the safety net kind of system we currently have.

[Cratedigger]

I like the fare free project KC has pursued. The honor system with random fare checks would be 2nd best. Yes common in Europe, though I've never seen a system like that in North America. I'd be interested to know where that is implemented.

Dallas's DART LRT system works this way. Passes now are primarily through an app and when the officer comes by you just show him your phone.

I think you can also get paper copies of passes from a DART office or certain gas stations but I'm not sure

[GRID]

I like the fare free project KC has pursued. The honor system with random fare checks would be 2nd best. Yes common in Europe, though I've never seen a system like that in North America. I'd be interested to know where that is implemented.

Lack of friction when boarding is most important. But lack of any friction what-so-ever in terms of not having to set up or maintain ticket kiosks or interact with them as a rider is great.

I was an infrequent bus rider. Regularly catching 20-30 min waits and need a transfer where there is additional wait. Or walk 20 minutes to avoid transfer but the most direct walking route is largely inhospitable and still might catch a wait. E-bike has completely supplanted the bus in my life this summer. I wish our system would make me want to ride but 30 minute headways is never going to work for me.

Pretty sure most LRT systems in the USA are basically honor system. At least most the ones I have used. Bus systems in the USA are slowly getting away from fare collection in the bus unless using instant tap to pay etc. That works very well in Europe, however, people ae more civilized in Europe and are more likely to be "honest". Even many intercity rail routes are basically honor system over there. But people also use turn signals and know how to stay to the right of faster traffic when driving...Americans seem to have a hard time following basic laws like paying to use trains, but we don't enforce it either. Every time I use the subway in DC, NYC etc, I see people jumping the turnstiles and nobody cares.

And I'm generally only talking about the urban core as far as KC not having bus service. I don't see KC ever having 10 minutes headways on suburban routes. KC barely has a suburban bus system at all and that's probably fine. Nobody in the suburbs would ride buses there anyway. You just need enough routes to make it look like the suburbs are getting something when you have regional votes etc. Everything in the center city should be no more than 15 min headways though. Anything more than that makes transit totally un-usable for people that have options.

[DaveKCMO]

1. Most US bus systems are *not* the honor system. Other than a few fancy BRT routes, most are pay the front door where you interact with the driver. LRT systems are honor system. Heavy rail typically has turnstiles. Also, fare collection systems are expensive. Where does that money come from? Local match is always required. Local money can be used for operations, so do that instead.

2. If you haven't experienced a benefit of zero fare then it wasn't for you. It's for the low income people that make up the vast majority of ridership.

3. KC ridership rebounded faster and higher than fare-charging systems during the pandemic. That right there should tell you everything you need to know, but alas...

4. As mentioned above, the current level of service is 100% due to staffing and not funding. Resuming fares would do nothing but create more work for the agency.

5. And, finally, it's an approved policy directive from the city of KCMO.

Now, back to the Main Street Extension (which is also ZERO FARE -- where is the outrage about that?).

[GRID]

I didn't say most USA bus systems, I said most USA LRT systems are honor based. In Europe the bus systems also seem to be mostly off bus honor based, but you can often tap to pay on the buses there. NYC and other large cities have adopted tap to pay etc on buses.

KC's bus system is small with low ridership, so I'm sure the cost of the fare collection infrastructure is like half the revenue or more. I was just saying that a well funded system is with higher frequency is better than a free system that tis unusable. And KC has not had robust high frequency bus system in a long time, way before the pandemic.

And I agree, the streetcar being free would not be fair to bus riders. But in this day and age where you can pay for a fare with the tap of a phone with little infrastructure, it seems like a missed revenue opportunity. But again, with a small system like KC, it probably doesn't matter.

[moderne]

Walking on the new sidewalk on the east side of Main is sorta strange. To walk where no one has walked in at least 50 years. Was there ever a sidewalk on this side of Main before CC? Has this section of Main always been this wide? Seem like it could have been narrower when the originally cut through the hill.

[cknab1]

Love the new sidewalk. My wife and I used it to walk to Union Station last week. We wanted one there for a long time, but it took the streetcar installation to get it done. Never understood why Main was 5 lanes wide in this area. The street racers and motorcycles loved it over night, that's for sure.

[TrolliKC]

Agreed, I used them to walk to vote at liberty mem on Tuesday. Main will be really nice in that stretch, especially when the street car is running

[Midtownkid]

Is the west side of Main, adjacent Liberty Memorial getting a wider sidewalk?

I noticed a new curb between the street and the streetcar tracks. There is still asphalt between the tracks and the west sidewalk, but no way to park a car there. The sidewalk is very narrow as it is. Hope they are planning to expand it.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

Is the west side of Main, adjacent Liberty Memorial getting a wider sidewalk?

I noticed a new curb between the street and the streetcar tracks. There is still asphalt between the tracks and the west sidewalk, but no way to park a car there. The sidewalk is very narrow as it is. Hope they are planning to expand it.

Separated ROW for streetcar, curb is present to ensure it remains physically separated, the edge closest to the sidewalk is becoming a micro mobility lane.

[DaveKCMO]

Is the west side of Main, adjacent Liberty Memorial getting a wider sidewalk?

I noticed a new curb between the street and the streetcar tracks. There is still asphalt between the tracks and the west sidewalk, but no way to park a car there. The sidewalk is very narrow as it is. Hope they are planning to expand it.

The new curb is for separation and drainage. The space between the track slab and the existing sidewalk will be a mobility lane. Not sure if the city knows how it's going to connect south of 27th or north of Pershing, but it could easily connect with the trail in PVP and the Grand bike lanes if Public Works looks at it seriously enough.

[TheUrbanRoo]

Streetcar track is dug all the way out to US Bank & Panchos lot now on Main.

[moderne]

after track installation, the rest of the construction is going to be a lot less disruptive.

[TheUrbanRoo]

Any idea when they start building the stops?