Bike Lanes

Transportation topics in KC
swid
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by swid »

I'm guessing the butt-hurtness for Gillham is more along the lines of "With NB Gillham down to one lane, I (maybe, if I'm driving during the peak 15 minutes of 'rush hour') have to wait several extra seconds at lights after they turn green or I can't speed around anyone who dares drive the actual speed limit! This is a extremely small inconvenience to me personally, but I'm incapable of empathy! Harrumph!"
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by moderne »

Referring to the visual clutter of the poles. I think maybe a lot of the Paseo resistance is the idea of something being forced upon homeowners. Like the aborted name change to MLK. And going further back the freeways being rammed through. I really think in my own opinion as a somewhat recent newcomer to the neighborhood the appearance of the poles and perceived problem of keeping the street clear and clean of leaves, trash, and snow they may present is the biggest hurdle.
And yes the lack of city services, including sidewalks, makes many not to want money spent on something they will not use. I am certainly not qualified to comment on what the white community want vs what the black community wants but judging from the color of weekend bike traffic on the Paseo, biking might be considered a thing for young white folks. There was even some resentment from the recent marathon as being white suburban people forcing themselves on the neighborhood(go close off your own streets).
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normalthings
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by normalthings »

I thought the north Paseo was going to be a mixed use trail anyways
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by flyingember »

swid wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:26 pm I'm guessing the butt-hurtness for Gillham is more along the lines of "With NB Gillham down to one lane, I (maybe, if I'm driving during the peak 15 minutes of 'rush hour') have to wait several extra seconds at lights after they turn green or I can't speed around anyone who dares drive the actual speed limit! This is a extremely small inconvenience to me personally, but I'm incapable of empathy! Harrumph!"
Paseo has plenty of extra capacity to add bike lanes if Gillham does

https://data.kcmo.org/Transportation/Tr ... /s7kw-x59n
I pulled similar blocks 20s-40s for Gillham, Paseo and for comparison sake, Main and Troost

Gillham:
ped counts 119
car counts: 11344

Paseo:
ped counts 66
car counts: 9183

Main:
ped counts 310
car counts: 15422

Troost
ped counts 384
car counts: 7612
flyingember
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by flyingember »

moderne wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:30 pm I am certainly not qualified to comment on what the white community want vs what the black community wants but judging from the color of weekend bike traffic on the Paseo, biking might be considered a thing for young white folks.
I find it ironic that biking has racial undertones when the city busses have bus racks and I bet if you asked in Liberty or Leawood or Blue Springs you would find many saying busses are for people of certain backgrounds (be it racial, social, economic)

It's an interesting thought none the less and one that needs to change if biking is to grow.
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

I find it interesting that people think bike lanes are for the weekend spandex crowd, even though they don't use bike lanes even when riding on a street with them installed.
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by KCPowercat »

It's a petty complaint but I can see what they mean. Like Moderne said, let's invest in something better than upright poles to create a separated lane. Maybe their beef will make a better finished product.
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by kboish »

I agree that something nicer should be put on Paseo. Mixed use path where possible would be great. Do more to make it looks nice where its on street. Nothing wrong with demanding more. Especially on Paseo, which is supposed to be one of our grandest boulevards.
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by flyingember »

kboish wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:53 pm I agree that something nicer should be put on Paseo. Mixed use path where possible would be great. Do more to make it looks nice where its on street. Nothing wrong with demanding more. Especially on Paseo, which is supposed to be one of our grandest boulevards.
I see a lot of people who are clearly low(er) income walking on the fairly new shared path along N Oak from NKC northward. I also see bicyclists, walkers and the like that fit the white middle class look. Basically, all types of people use it.

It’s far better than a bike lane for the specific environment and I hope they extend it all the way to Gladstone with time. It’s not a really good road for bike lanes at the end of the day. Would rather see the space used for the train.

Shared path sidewalks would be great on the Paseo. Would look like better sidewalks for all, be kid friendly and of course enable more biking.
I would also like to see improved landscaping at the same time. Where there’s space, some nice public amenities that have community support.
The landscaping at City Club could serve as the model.
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by DaveKCMO »

I rode the Gillham bike lane from Crossroads all the way to Cleaver last night. I was surprised at how well it was used, but it was rush hour. I even saw a couple of kids riding in it. Since we're only dealing in anecdata here, just thought I would share how great it is for me personally to get from Crossroads to Midtown/Plaza quickly and more directly than snaking through neighborhood streets that aren't connected or two-way.

It's also a lot flatter than other routes I have taken, which is something people often forget when the city chooses streets for bike infrastructure.

Much of the debate is whether (a) the city can do a better job of outreach with neighborhoods and (b) whether the infrastructure, once built and properly connected, will induce people to bike more. The jury is still out on (a). There's also quite a bit of "fix the sidewalks first!", which is completely justified but should also apply to the dramatic increase in resurfacing since that is literally from the same pot of cash (KCMO is not under any federal oversight on pavement quality, but it is very much in violation of ADA all over the city).

I should also add that Public Works continues to siphon off revenue from the 1/2-cent public transit sales tax for non-transit uses. Somehow that is conveniently forgotten...
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by KCPowercat »

Would/could Paseo be center running? The amount of curb cuts (green paint) on Gillham just look like a recipe for bike/car interactions.
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by flyingember »

KCPowercat wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:11 am Would/could Paseo be center running? The amount of curb cuts (green paint) on Gillham just look like a recipe for bike/car interactions.
I bet the majority of dangerous crossings is people turning left into their driveway. People don't generally look behind themselves when they do this. With a bike lane on the outside they're turning across oncoming bikes who could see the car. With center running, they would be cutting off bikes to their left.
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by DaveKCMO »

I honestly don't trust KCMO to get center-running right. I'm not even sure more experienced US cities have gotten that right, especially if your goal is to get the "interested but concerned" crowd to bike more.
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by KCPowercat »

I'm thinking more in the areas we have a wide median and limited left turns on the Paseo.
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by flyingember »

KCPowercat wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:19 pm I'm thinking more in the areas we have a wide median and limited left turns on the Paseo.
Why would we tear out grass to put in bike lanes?

Indep Ave to 18th should be trails down the middle. a nice ten foot wide shared trail for walking and biking with existing sidewalks for connections and adding new ones as appropriate
18th to 29th should be bike lanes
29th to 31st could be shared paths on the outside
31st to MLK is your standard four lane road where it could be parking protected bike lanes or a wide shared path
transition to center running somewhere on either side of Brush creek
MLK to 58th is grassy median. do another shared single trail
your idea could work 58th to 59th to bridge to grassy sections with a center running protected lane
59th to 79th is grassy again so another trail
79th to 85th would be unprotected lanes

It's not exactly the same, but the trail running along Brush Creek is this same model. it puts it far away from the road so you're walking through the green space instead of right next to the road.

Instead of bollards protect the trail in the grassy space with trees, decorative walls and the like as much as possible
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by moderne »

Sounds workable. Might be tricky between Indy Ave and I-70 where there are number of monuments, fountain, pergolas, retaining walls. Putting it in Troost Park is good idea as most of park unused, too bad Troost Lake along Paseo is mostly steep downgrade hardly enough room for narrow ped sidewalk.
Would auto driver awareness be a problem where bike path crosses lateral streets versus awareness at corners?
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by flyingember »

moderne wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:58 pm Sounds workable. Might be tricky between Indy Ave and I-70 where there are number of monuments, fountain, pergolas, retaining walls. Putting it in Troost Park is good idea as most of park unused, too bad Troost Lake along Paseo is mostly steep downgrade hardly enough room for narrow ped sidewalk.
Would auto driver awareness be a problem where bike path crosses lateral streets versus awareness at corners?
My thoughts on safety from most to least
1. path crossing in a wide median
2. corner bump out with a sharper radius (Chicago example here- https://azmag.gov/Programs/Transportati ... ersections )
3. a Shared path that's raised above the street
4. a protected bike lane without parking
5. any bike lane with parking on the inside (cars can hide the bikes from view)
6. unprotected lanes of any position

the ultimate design would be some kind of shared path setup at sidewalk height, a corner bump out, a raised intersection table and a pedestrian scramble where bikes can go at the same time as people so there's no need for a bike cycle.

bike boxes are a bad choice in this hierarchy and shouldn't be used. It puts cars further back so they can't see around buildings or see oncoming pedestrians and bikes. Making cyclists cross in front of cars to make a left turn makes no sense when right on red is legal and a car doesn't have to wait behind the bike box.

Bike lanes are a fine temporary solution but if we can install a bike lane we can move the shoulder and raise the bike lane. It would give bikes better visibility above cars as one looks backwards before entering an intersection
missingkc
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by missingkc »

This article may throw some light onthe 3rd District’s response to bike lanes. Seems like a very similar set of circumstances.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/why- ... t_discover
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FangKC
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by FangKC »

PH neighbors, businesses keep the future in mind for Lexington bike lane plan

http://northeastnews.net/pages/ph-neigh ... lane-plan/
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Re: Bike Lanes

Post by DaveKCMO »

Shared bike/bus lane at 27th and Holmes. Lesson learned from Gillham, which blocks ADA access to bus stops with bollards and such:

Image
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