Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

[LenexatoKCMO]

Crown Center is a positive. But I think Hallmark can be criticised for being too conservative with the development. I know they are not in the business of real estate development, but jeez. With all the condo development that has gone on, and the massive investments in the IRS and Federal Reserve, the reopening and development of Union Station, the sucess of the freight yards area, etc, etc, they have not put in one stinking residential unit in the past 30 years. That is pathetic and ultra ultra conservative.

Talk about brain dead managers. What do they have  a bunch of aging baby boomers runing the show? Bring in someone with energy to manage the place. 

Agreed - and for many years they used their control of the surrounding real estate to stifle competing shopping, entertainment, and dining.  The philosphy was that shopping and dining in the surrounding area might steal away customers from the businesses in their little island.  This meant that for many years, if you were staying at one of the hotels and wanted to go out to dinner or to a nightspot, there wasn't any option outside of the hotels that didn't involve a cab ride to some other part of town.  I can speak with the experience of having worked in one of the hotels that this was a big turn off to visitors.  I can't tell you how many times I had people ask for recomendations on bars and restaurants outside the hotel - after telling them io catch a cab to the plaza or westport they would typically respond "surely there is something in walking distance?" - well actually no, no there isn't.  It has only been relatively recently that the Halls have warmed up to the idea that crown center might benefit by having vibrant neighborhoods around it.  Nowadays it is an easy walk to places like Lydias, Fiorrellas, Pierponts, Bar Natasha, etc.  And the neighborhood is no longer the same intimidating run-down place it was back when the Hall's were intent on keeping everybody on their island. 

[trailerkid]

Architecture and design aside, the Halls should be credited for keeping a shopping, dining, office, residential and entertainment complex so vibrant in the heart of the city for so many years. If you look inside the CBD, it's easy to see that it surely wasn't easy to survive when downtown KCMO hit its lowest lows. But Crown Center kept on moving and the Halls kept keeping it updated, clean, and intact. CC still does good advertising campaigns and provides a different atmosphere for tourists in the middle of the core. I bet it wasn't cheap and they put a lot of money and faith into that complex when no one else wanted to put 2 cents into downtown.

With that said, it will be CC's struggle in the years ahead to stop worrying about bringing people downtown and start worrying about how to cater to the people that are already there.

[GRID]

^ exactly.  Crown Center has been the only thing that has kept KC from truly hitting the bottom of the barrel when it comes to downtown.  If we didn't have Crown Center, I can't think of another city other than Detroit that would have had a worse downtown area through the past 20 years and I would bet we would have been comparable to them.

Not to mention, things like Hospital Hill, Union Hill would probably not exist the way they do today if Crown Center were just continuation of the Crossroads.

Now we have Downtown, Crossroads, Midtown Plaza etc.  I personally like the different areas of the city.  Why go to crown center if it looks just like the P&L district?, why go to the P&L district if it looks just like the plaza?

Having said that, Crown Center is doing better.  They are trying to get away from the 70's feel and look.  They are trying to open up the area to the sidewalks etc.

Hallmark has invested a ton of money in KCMO, a ton.  Do you really think that ice rink makes money?  Those fountains?  The theaters?  They take their profits and put it back into the complex for things that don't break even for the better of crown center area and the city.

I can't stand it when people bash one of KC's few true "local" companies that have so much pride in the community, especially the urban core.

Just because they have skywalks and no on-street parking?

What has Sprint done?  They were MUCH larger than Hallmark.

Having spent the last 8 years working at Crown Center, I would like to thank Hallmark and keep up the good work with the ongoing renovations and additions in the Crown Center area.

Crown Center will compliment Downtown and the Plaza, it shouldn't be a carbon copy of them.

Crown Center is not perfect, they made mistakes, but they survived downtown and they did what they had to do.  Give them a chance to get more residential, open up the retail to the streets and continue to be the only real downtown threat to Johnson County office parks.

[Deleted User]

.

[Highlander]

Just because they have skywalks and no on-street parking?

I really like Crown Center and agree with nearly everything you say.  I will go a bit further and say that I also like the Skywalks there.  Skywalks detract from downtown proper but fit in much better at Crown Center.  They do not take anything away from street level pedestrian traffic because the nature of the area, there is not much room for anything that would benefit from the local foot traffic (except Washington Park may be a bit more used if the Skywalks were not there).  I liked being able to go from Union Station to the Hyatt without having to cross two major streets...Main and Grand along the way.  Plus they create some nice platforms for taking photos...just wish they would keep the glass cleaner.

[kcdcchef]

^ exactly.  Crown Center has been the only thing that has kept KC from truly hitting the bottom of the barrel when it comes to downtown.  If we didn't have Crown Center, I can't think of another city other than Detroit that would have had a worse downtown area through the past 20 years and I would bet we would have been comparable to them.

Not to mention, things like Hospital Hill, Union Hill would probably not exist the way they do today if Crown Center were just continuation of the Crossroads.

Now we have Downtown, Crossroads, Midtown Plaza etc.  I personally like the different areas of the city.  Why go to crown center if it looks just like the P&L district?, why go to the P&L district if it looks just like the plaza?

Having said that, Crown Center is doing better.  They are trying to get away from the 70's feel and look.  They are trying to open up the area to the sidewalks etc.

Hallmark has invested a ton of money in KCMO, a ton.  Do you really think that ice rink makes money?  Those fountains?  The theaters?  They take their profits and put it back into the complex for things that don't break even for the better of crown center area and the city.

I can't stand it when people bash one of KC's few true "local" companies that have so much pride in the community, especially the urban core.

Just because they have skywalks and no on-street parking?

What has Sprint done?  They were MUCH larger than Hallmark.

Having spent the last 8 years working at Crown Center, I would like to thank Hallmark and keep up the good work with the ongoing renovations and additions in the Crown Center area.
Crown Center will compliment Downtown and the Plaza, it shouldn't be a carbon copy of them.
Crown Center is not perfect, they made mistakes, but they survived downtown and they did what they had to do.  Give them a chance to get more residential, open up the retail to the streets and continue to be the only real downtown threat to Johnson County office parks.

this is why i resurrected this 3 year old dead thread. it needed brought back. if you look at the most interesting or dynamic shopping areas in other cities, architecture sometimes does stand out. sometimes not. but in the "neighborhood" that comprised crown center, not all of the architecture is as boring as some think. the westin, is a neat structure for a hotel, the way it is built into the hillside, and even showcases that in it's lobby, or when you put together the pershing square, hotels, office buildings, and crown center itself, you have a real interesting mix. and now, with the way crown center made union station part of it's hood, now you have union station, the old post office, even some consider western auto part of the crown center neighborhood.

and it irks me too when i hear people bitch about hallmark, or how terrible they are for not being downtown. by definition, downtown is well past crown center, so it is part of downtown. there really was no way for them to make it work the way they wanted it to back in the 60's and 70's to build anywhere else then they did. the solo area was not big enough by it's boundaries, because there was too much stuff in the way to buiild a complex this big. but we have to remember, in the 70's-80's all companies were headed to joco, or other states, and hallmark, and the hall family, true to their kc roots, gave us this amazing jewel right in the middle of our city. i will never forget how fascinated my wife was when i took her to crown center square the first time, well, the first time at christmas. she had been before, but not at christmas, she was so amazed. how could you not be? i mean, crown center is as woven into our christmas traditions, with the crown center ice terrace, the mayors christmas tree, the shopping, all the other decor, the famous doves above grand, they are as much a part of our kc holiday traditions as the plaza.

and they do not stop there. do you think childrens mercy would have done all they have done if it were not for crown center? sure, childrens mercy would be a great childrens hospital, but they may have bolted and went elsewhere. and do you not think crown centers success was not instrumental in union station? that shit was staring dead center at the wrecking ball a hundred times. if the area was as blighted as it was when it was sign hill, do you think bi state would have even happened?? or just the hospital hill area in general. which, is now pretty much gone though. or washington square park, which, to me, is one of our nicest urban parks.

contrast, contrast, contrast. without it our city would look like so many urban areas in texas, that all look the same. like said earlier, who would go to the plaza if it was crown center, and who would go to the p&l if it looks like crown center?

this is an amazing part of our city that we should be thankful we have the hall family. without them, there would be nothing there, short of some apartments on the hill probably.

[LenexatoKCMO]

I generally tip my hat to the Hall family for Crown Center.  It was certainly something they didn't have to do, and I doubt that it has been much of a profit generator for them.  I would love to see just how much red ink is on the American Restaurant's bottom line every year - But the Halls obviously feel it is important to have a Michelin caliber restaurant in town.  Also I do not believe that Crown Center is beyond redemption from a design perspective.  They need to keep up projects along the lines of the recent Panera. 

That said, I don't think they are above reproach either.  As I said earlier, their policy of stifiling "competition" from businesses in surrounding areas had a very chilling effect on the whole area for decades.  I don't think this was done out of maliciousness or greed but out of a misguided sense of what it took to make the development successful.  Fortunately they seem to know better these days.  Having a thriving xroads and midtown can only help make Crown Center a more desirable place for both visitors and locals. 

[Thrillcekr]

A good thing about Crown Center is that it's not like a suburban strip mall in the fact that it's worth saving.  Instead of simply dozing it down to make way for the latest in consumer shopping trends it only has to reinvent itself a little to get up with the times.  Old suburban shopping centers all over the metro have fallen (and will continue to fall) like dominoes.  Meanwhile, Crown Center has ridden out the storm while being located in what has probably been the toughest of all places for retail to survive.  The old urban core.  To me that makes it a huge success.  

What is even greater is the fact that, with the old urban core beginning to flourish again, the center is getting some newly found attention from retailers looking to capitalize on all the additional traffic that will be passing through downtown due to P&L and the thousands of new jobs being created in that area.  Add that to the fact that there are tons of new residents coming to the area both in downtown, the northeast, and midtown and it leads me to believe that the future looks very bright for CC.  

[Highlander]

What is even greater is the fact that, with the old urban core beginning to flourish again, the center is getting some newly found attention from retailers looking to capitalize on all the additional traffic that will be passing through downtown due to P&L and the thousands of new jobs being created in that area.  Add that to the fact that there are tons of new residents coming to the area both in downtown, the northeast, and midtown and it leads me to believe that the future looks very bright for CC.  

Not to mention that without Crown Center, there would probably be no Union Hill or Founders and I sincerely doubt if the Union Station would have undergone renovation if Crown Center was replaced by what was there before.....namely signboard hill.  Without the Union Station renovation, the IRS would probably not be coming downtown.  Probably no Western Auto lofts either wihout CC (and the influence on Hospital Hill has been already mentioned).  Although I am one of the few who really like the design of Crown Center (the shops are certainly better now than they were at first), it has been a catalyst for development in the area like no other in Kansas City since the demise of DT in the 60's.  .

[FangKC]

I'm also surprised over Crown Center's ability to survive in the urban core when so many other malls have died.

I think Crown Center could be improved in many ways.  First of all, they could build more open glass retail shops in the grassy areas that front the street. A nice glassed-in restaurant on the SE corner of Main and Pershing would have a nice view of Union Station.  I also think they could place small buildings along the SW corner of Grand and Pershing.  They don't have to be big buildings, just a couple stories.  They could place the entrances against the street, and have small courtyards in front where outdoor tables and seating could be placed. It would be a nice dining experience with the trees along Pershing and the park across the street. I think the Panera store is a great first step in that direction.

But the biggest improvement could be adding a lot more residential to the area. This would increase the pedestrian activity.  They should go ahead and build a second residential tower on Grand next to the existing one--like was in the original plan.  A tower would have great views of the Liberty Memorial, Union Cemetery, Union Station, and the downtown skyline.

I would also like to see them build 4-6 story residential condos along Gillham Road and extend Founders Union Hill to the north and fill in all that open space between 30th and 27th streets on both sides of Gillham, and down to McGee. Then from McGee west, they should line 27th Street--on both sides--with more residential towers extending over to Main.  Having so many additional people living nearby would help support the shops at Crown Center.

[kcdcchef]

the reason crown center has survived, the retail aspect, is their ability to reinvent itself. if you go inside the main part, you can count the amount of stores that have been there 10 years plus on 2 hands. and it is not shops failing, it is that they keep it fresh. the hallmark live they have there is one of their flagship hallmark stores, and it is always new, unique, and iintersting. same with the everyday is a holiday, which, they renamed holiday magic, how many decades has that shop been there? i think it is an anchor tenant for crown center retail. cars the star has been there for decades. zoom? waldenbooks? russian arts store? and the fact is that the interior of the crown center shops, has been done, and redone, and redone, and redone, there is something new inside of that place everytime i go. a sand sculpture one year, the redo the ebt santa every christmas, the food court, it is always something new.

even the main entrance. it was redone completely about 5 years ago. they did not used to have fountains right outside the front door, that is the coolest, and just the way the redid the entrance. and once you get in there. i mentioned the food court. it is always a work in progress. something does not pull it's weight, or is an unpopular concept, they redo it. the only holdover in crown center after all of these years is topsy's. everything else comes and goes. and is good they do that, you always have a chance to try something different, save the concepts like milano's, it has been there forever.

halls is a different animal, the inside of it looks the same as it always has, however, the way they present their retail, the way they display stuff, is real damn nice. they have a real way of working with it, real creative stuff. while bannister, blue ridge, metro north, oak park, have all faded, had successful runs end, foundered in some cases, in a day when the rage is to build malls like independence center, minus the roof, or village west, the outdoor shopping has taken over, this is a prime example of an indoor place that has managed to FLOURISH.

and it will for decades to come. it is only through it's ability to recreate, reinvent, and redo. other malls should have copied this years ago, but failed to see the writing on the wall. the only downfall i have ever seen within the confines of the urban palace that is crown center, is their inability to coexsist with union station............had we done what we all really wanted with union station, made it a mall like in st. louis, then perhaps, it would be flourishing, not floundering today. when i think of shopping at crown center, i think upscale. when i think what could have been done at union station, like in st louis, or dc, i thought of shopping more middle of the road, spencers, another hallmark, american eagle, talbots, diebels sportsman gallery, stuff like that. but, for whatever reason, the halls were leading the mid 90's charge to make sure that union station became something other than shopping. now, i am in the extreme minority that wants to keep union station as is, and give it more time to succeed, but that is just me, and that is another topic anyways.

as far as residential goes, crown center was the only place building urban dwellings in downtown for almost 20 years, when they constructed the san francisco tower, and santa fe place.  and in recent months, the star actually ran an arcticle that said what we already suspected, they are considering throwing their hats into the red hot kc condo market, and constructing another tower of residential. man, i hope they do.

[ComandanteCero]

I think the main reason Crown Center hasn't failed is because it has powerful backers with deep pockets who have been willing to subsidize its operation when the going has gotten tough.  There are many creative ways to make a mall look alive even when vacancy rates are high (i.e paperback stores, christmas ornament shops, gift card outlets, etc).  These are mostly phantom shops thrown up over night to keep things looking healthy and full, not to mention generous leases and below market rents for certain key tenants.

Anywho, not trying to be negative, but a real estate friend told me about how malls use these techniques, and how Crown Center was one of the key examples of this.

[kcdcchef]

I think the main reason Crown Center hasn't failed is because it has powerful backers with deep pockets who have been willing to subsidize its operation when the going has gotten tough.  There are many creative ways to make a mall look alive even when vacancy rates are high (i.e paperback stores, christmas ornament shops, gift card outlets, etc).  These are mostly phantom shops thrown up over night to keep things looking healthy and full, not to mention generous leases and below market rents for certain key tenants.

Anywho, not trying to be negative, but a real estate friend told me about how malls use these techniques, and how Crown Center was one of the key examples of this.

i do not think i have ever seen those types at crown center though. the christmas shop is privately owned, as is the bookstore. are you speaking of any specefic examples at cc?

[FangKC]

I love that Cars the Star store. The Hall's Department Store is a great store.  They merchandise things nicely, and it's remained a higher-end department store.  The fact that a big department store has remained in downtown Kansas City is a marvel. I've always thought they could add a couple of bigger retailers on 27th St. in the base of residential towers. Stores like Crate & Barrel, Tower Records, Today's Man, Old Navy, and Williams Sonoma might do well there.  A small gourmet grocery might do okay there if there was more residential in the immediate area.

One must acknowledge that the retail portion of Crown Center has probably survived in part because there are thousands of workers there at Hallmark, IBM, Blue Cross-Blue Shield, Assurant, Children's Mercy Hospital, Truman Medical Center, the dental and medical schools, the post office, and two large hotels.  And for many years, there was St. Mary's and Trinity Lutheran hospitals, the Rehabiliation Institute, and BMA Tower nearby.

It is somewhat disappointing though that the Hall family didn't carry out the residential portion of the plan to a greater extent than has occurred. There were three buildings like the San Francisco tower in the original plan, a couple of smaller mid-rise residential towers, and more smaller residential apartment buildings along 27th St. and Gillham.  The San Francisco and Santa Fe condos were completed 30 years ago--a total of 235 apartments.  They have not added one apartment in 30 years, yet thousands of well-paid workers work within walking distance. This averages out to be about 8 apartments a year over that period. They also have one of the loveliest locations in the city to build apartmetns with a view.  Surely they could have added more apartments than that.

The strange thing about this strategy is that they would have been building up support for the retail at Crown Center had they been constantly adding residential to the neighborhood.  A built-in customer base. They could have charged a premium on living units with a view; close proximity to jobs; a convenient location; and access to retail and a park.  The most obvious marketing they could have done is to their own employees.

It seems to me that if you have thousands of employees working for Hallmark, that you could have sent around questionaires to workers asking them what kind of living options they wanted, and if they would like to be able to live close to work.  Their employee-base, by its nature, falls under the definition of the creative class that tends to like urban living.  Hallmark could have also found a way to help their employees secure mortgages for their condos, or at least rented to them. That way, the portion of income they pay workers, that in turn goes for housing payments, comes back to Hallmark.  Since some of the payout for salaries comes back to the company, in essence, Hallmark is getting back some of the money paid out in compensation.

I would also think there would have been a lot of young nurses and medical residents who would have liked to have decent apartments near the hospitals in the area, since many of them work long and late shifts.  They like to be close to work for that reason. Kansas City has a large population of people between the ages of 20-40, and whom live alone.

The other factor here was that the housing stock in the neighborhood around Crown Center is rather old, and many of the apartments lack modern amenities.  Many people who work there probably couldn't find a decent apartment so they could live close to work.

[ComandanteCero]

i do not think i have ever seen those types at crown center though. the christmas shop is privately owned, as is the bookstore. are you speaking of any specefic examples at cc?

Well, the idea is that you don't know who actually owns the stores, (i.e dummy owners).  I can't think of any off the top of my head since I haven't been inside the actual mall portion in ages, I'm just taking the word of this person since they are generally knowledgeable and correct about real estate issues in KC.  Then again, I dont' know if its presently like that, or if he was talking about some point in the past when things were really bad...

[aknowledgeableperson]

I feel sorry for those who criticize Crown Center.  What development is ever perfect? 
Has Hallmark looked out for it's self-interest?  Yes, but then most do.  Especially when they have so much invested.  They built residential when noone else did it and did it many years before the others came into play.
Look at what was there before and look at what is there now.  Quite a change.
Crown Center was a big gamble for Hallmark.  There was no guarantee that it would succeed.
Although others may call the location downtown, I am old school and say it is not.  Did it hurt the area inside the DT loop?  Yes, but it saved KCMO, and to a degree, DT also.  It gave people a choice between KCMO and JoCo.  And it was an alternative to the Plaza which helped DT.

Just think of what KCMO would look like if Crown Center was not built.

[trailerkid]

I can't help but think that Crown Center Shops could do a lot better in terms of offering interesting and dinstinctive shopping. I think that in the 80s it was held in much higher regard than it is now. Now it's more of a touristy, hotel and office mall instead of a destination point. I like that they have a flagship Hallmark shop and Crayola store and restaurant, but much more could be offered to draw metro residents and out-of-towners. I'm not saying going overboard with a bunch of crap chain stores, but just carefully add other established and distinct names that fit like Lego, L'Occitane, Sur la Table and even some apparel stores like Benetton. I don't think they need a major overhaul, but just add a few more interesting national names to their list of curio shops that will draw more visitors.

Crown Center has a pretty stellar line-up of hotels and restaurants and it seems like beefing up the retail department could help make it more current, interesting, and relevant.

BTW, the theaters need to either go art house or leave the complex. I'd like to see Landmark take them over.

[LenexatoKCMO]

I agree that they need to bring in some non-touristy apparel options if they want locals to take the place remotely seriously.  However, I have to think that being sandwiched between the Plaza and P&L kind of limits their ability to attract some of those retailers. 

They need to spruce up the interior a bit too.  I like what they have done with the entrance but when you get inside it doesn't show as well.  the ceilings look like crap and they need to redo their signage - the brass and neon thing is getting very, very dated. 

[DaveKCMO]

...carefully add other established and distinct names that fit like Lego...

BTW, the theaters need to either go art house or leave the complex. I'd like to see Landmark take them over.

it's a shame that there's no lego store at crown center. it's a perfect fit!

also, a good idea for the theaters would be do family films during the day, then art films at night. no reason it can't serve a dual-purpose, given the location. in fact, there's no reason crown center couldn't become an "adult" destination after 7 or 8 PM... wine tastings, art exhibits in empty retail slots, DJs in the atrium. if nicklelodeon and cartoon network can pull it off... although i think union station would make a kick ass location for the same sort of thing.

[trailerkid]

it's a shame that there's no lego store at crown center. it's a perfect fit!

also, a good idea for the theaters would be do family films during the day, then art films at night. no reason it can't serve a dual-purpose, given the location. in fact, there's no reason crown center couldn't become an "adult" destination after 7 or 8 PM... wine tastings, art exhibits in empty retail slots, DJs in the atrium. if nicklelodeon and cartoon network can pull it off... although i think union station would make a kick ass location for the same sort of thing.

I think we're on the same page! 

I'd even go so far as to change the name of the retail center to something like Crown Center Collection. It should be known throughout the region as having interesting and dinstinctive shopping. It's already halfway there...just needs a bit of retooling. Make it have a euro feel to it.

These are some of the storefronts that would help bring CC into 2006: