Bannister Mall/Cerner

Jackson/Cass Suburbs, including South KC
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by AlkaliAxel »

shinatoo wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:48 pm
I'm sure your intention wasn't to say this. But if you think about what you're saying it's really this; we shouldn't invest in areas that are full of poor people because those areas are nothing.

There are a lot of people and businesses in that area that we have to invest in if we're going to make Kansas City a great City. We will not be great unless we are all great. We won't build our tax base up and turn this city around if we're only investing in downtown. Not to mention that we desperately need housing like this.

We have to do both and we can do both.
1. "Don't invest in our neighborhoods we don't want gentrification!" and this isn't just about poor inner city neighborhoods

2. More importantly, it's all about creating synergy. Synergy is the most efficient way to create growth. Putting the entire Cerner campus in St. Joseph would have meager results compared to investing it in downtown.

Otherwise...why even invest the majority of things in downtown? Why not just equally spread it out everywhere? Because that's not efficient or even effective.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

With many thousands of jobs at serious risk long term from largest local corporate employer, the City needs to be careful not to assume a single idealistic vision for Bannister site.

They need to present many incentive options involving various possibilities for Bannister including perhaps downtown, airport and Diode sites as well, whatever KC can offer to keep/grow jobs and entice more Oracle investment as the default path is not looking good at all.

The jobs need to be higher priority than what specifically happens to Bannister site. And KC needs to be proactively aggressive as being reactive could be a disaster. Waiting to see what Oracle plans would not be a good idea.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

So also looking at the Oracle Nashville plans, they are building 1.2m sqft on riverfront over 10 years for up to 8500 jobs. The Bannister site was planned to have over 4M sqft but about 1.6M sqft is completed.

Separately, State Street is moving to 35K sqft space in Lightwell, with the hybrid workers at apparently mostly non-dedicated co-working desks. They had 1K local employees so they are either planning significant mostly at home with some rotating hybrid or have reduced local workforce. Either way, spaces converted in this manner can handle many rotating hybrid employees.

If Bannister offices are reconfigured to mostly non-dedicated co-working desks they could probably can handle a lot more employees in hybrid rotation, perhaps more than the 10K+ local today. Given Oracle remote culture heading more hybrid than typical and there could be plenty of space for adding Oracle Hub employees as well beyond Health HQ jobs....

KC should actually aggressively attempt to compete with Nashville for those Oracle jobs given it could take 10 years for Nashville buildout to complete.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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earthling wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:07 pm KC should actually aggressively attempt to compete with Nashville for those Oracle jobs given it could take 10 years for Nashville buildout to complete.
But you NEVER see this type of proactive "compete" culture from KC. Ever. Okay, well for some reason KC at least tried very hard to get the World Cup but honestly, I don't think the city has even done enough for that as far as commitment to build up needed infrastructure prior to the event (hotels, transit, transatlantic flights etc).

KCMO will sit back and just wait and see what happens with Oracle and have zero aggression or passion to get something out of Oracle or the Bannister site. Nashville is a totally different animal in that regard. If this were reversed, the city of Nashville would be coming up with ideas and funding mechanisms to figure out a way to turn the Bannister site into something amazing or they would be coming up with ideas for Oracle to be a part of a brand new project in the center city somewhere.

KC has never really had that type of passion since Barnes and her ability to get the P&L District, H&R Block and Sprint Center done. If Barnes didn't do that, the south side of downtown KC would still look more like the east side of downtown today. KCMO still lacks leadership. And so does Jackson County. As much as I hate KCK's western sprawl crap, they at least show some leadership and what they want and they go out and make it happen.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by empires228 »

GRID wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:05 pm South KC was the high growth suburban area of KC at one time. Raytown was top suburb with good schools. South KC went from rapid growth to none at all literally overnight because the city put a shit ton of section eight housing out there in the Ruskin/Hickman Mills area and created mass white flight.

The Cerner Campus could have rebranded the entire area and caused a massive influx of young people looking for affordable homes in modest areas. Instead, the Cerner campus was built more like a federal prison as far as how it interacts with the surrounding area. It's not even comparable to the Sprint Campus in any way. It was nothing but a corporate welfare project. Cerner did not give one fuck about South Kansas City.

Now that they are out there, they need to try to get something out of it and new construction residential in an infill location that has not seen investment in decades is absolutely awesome for the area.
I have two friends out of state who actually know where KC is not because they’ve ever visited me, but because their college program has covered the Hyatt disaster and the time KCMO ignored recommendations from HUD when closing down the project towers and relocated too many residents to the same area (Hickman Mills/Center School Districts) which caused massive white flight and an explosion of growth in Lee’s Summit and southern JOCO. They also studied the Hickory Hill and White Haven neighborhoods in Memphis and how Memphis caused some of the fastest white flight in the nation too by forcing forcibly annexed areas to join inner city school districts. KCK also would create their own monster by devouring 3 of their suburban school districts, but that’s a different story. Western KCK was once one of the fastest growing suburban areas and before Washington High consolidated with KCK schools. That area has a similar housing stock (that could be pretty nice) and the overall same lack of curbs, gutters, and sidewalk that permeate much of the last stuff that was being built in south KCMO before white flight stopped development. A former coworker worked at Hickman Mills during the switch and said they weren’t from being an up and coming suburban district to hemorrhaging kids and funds practically overnight. Families would be in her classes on Monday and attending Lee’s Summit on Friday. Another coworker who left this year attended Center High during the rapid changes and eventually (after graduation) their family fled to eastern JOCO along with the majority of the area Jewish community and the community center. You can tell parts of Raytown were really nice in the 70s and 80s based on some of the houses that hit the market there that wouldn’t be out of place in central JOCO around SMS and BVN. I’ve heard the schools there are better than Hickman Mills, Independence, Grandview, and Center. I’ve also heard that Grandview and Center are pretty good at the elementary level and that it’s just the secondary schools that are iffy. No one has anything nice to say about Hickman Mills. Besides the former coworker my only personal anecdote is from a friend who applied at Ruskin High in 2017 and was told be a principal, “if you really love teaching as much as I think you do, you’d be better off applying elsewhere. This school eats even our best teachers up in the end.” This was shortly after a relative turn down a job in Topeka after being escorted in and out of the building by two SRO’s because students had thrown rocks at previous visitors.

Kansas City isn’t alone in having areas that would have a desirable commute to downtown fall victim to low investment caused by bad school districts, but dang we sure seem to have a lot of it between the six or so on the Missouri Side and the two in Kansas. Y’all better hope that SMSD doesn’t continue its trajectory into irrelevance as an economic engine close to the urban core. I think NKC is other one right now that could go either way towards stable or bad in the next 30 years or so. Some schools in both districts have had some interesting demographic shifts in both directions over the past 20 years and with both districts no longer offering arts and sports programs comparable to their more fluent adjacent districts as their neighborhoods age… well I just want all the schools to be nice lol. Equal access to schools like BVW or BVSW would be great.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by GRID »

Nice, you know KC's history well. Raytown was nearly built out and a thriving very nice place to live but what happened to SKC has forever tarnished Raytown which is sad. Even today, most of the bad things that happen in the Raytown area are actually in KCMO city limits that surround it, not Raytown itself, but most people in metro KC don't realize that. The Raytown School district goes deep into parts of SKC and East KC though and that also eventually hurt Raytown.

Grandview on the other hand really got the short end of the stick. The HUD housing and resulting crime and mass white flight in SKC stopped Grandview in its tracks and it too became stereotyped by all the crime just north of them. They are still trying to recover.

KCMO literally destroyed much of suburban Jackson County in less then ten years. This is when SKC had one of the largest and highest sales psf malls in the country with the Bannister Mall. Growth in SKC was really going nuts in the 70's and even 80's. You can look at the area on google maps see how it just stopped growing. There were plans to build more interchanges on 470, widen Bannister all the way to Lee's Summit, push 63rd St through the little blue valley etc. All just totally shelved. I just hope KCMO is not stupid enough to do this same thing with the northland. Imagine the Northland just stopping right now and in ten years it looking like hell up there. A city that has no idea what they are doing can easily do that and most of the time KCMO has no idea what they are doing.

They need to bring back SKC and Downtown. Right now KCMO is struggling with downtown to some degree because people don't understand that density with incentives is better than doing nothing. And it's obvious the city is failing with SKC, which is one of the biggest suburban ghettos in the country now.

That's why I have been so upset about this Cerner development since the first day I saw their plans for what they were going to do. That had to be one of the biggest wasted opportunities for mass redevelopment in any city in the country. What a damn shame. Shame on both KCMO and Cerner. But now with Oracle maybe they can right the ship. But again, that will take leadership and I just don't see that from KCMO.

I still see a city that bends over for a few and its ignorant voters and does little that's in the best interest of the the city as a whole because it's just too risky politically. And Jackson County leadership acts like a rural county of 50k not an urban county of 720k and it shows with their basic infrastructure and services. I mean even St Louis County makes Jackson County look like a poor southern county or something. Jackson County barely even has bus routes outside of central KCMO. That's all on leadership.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by daGOAT »

Exactly! My grandma taught at Woodland Elementary thru the 80's and 90's and was present as they tore down the Wayne Miner towers. Really the Eastside and Southside have totally affected Raytown, Grandview, and Independence. When I was really little I remember Bannister and Blue Ridge Malls which were already relics of better times, the Prospect bus used to take you all the way to Bannister/HyperMart in the early 00's. Investing in neighborhoods like Ruskin, Hickman Mills, Marlborough, and Red Bridge will only make for a stronger city. The area looks better than it has in 25 years but there's still a long way to go.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

GRID wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:26 pm
earthling wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:07 pm KC should actually aggressively attempt to compete with Nashville for those Oracle jobs given it could take 10 years for Nashville buildout to complete.
KCMO will sit back and just wait and see what happens with Oracle and have zero aggression or passion to get something out of Oracle or the Bannister site.
I've posted earlier in thread I'm not too confident in the City being aggressive enough as well. When the City is playing weak to no cards, the regional economic development groups need to step up their game. I suspect no one in city govt/ecodev planning outside this forum realizes Cerner/Oracle is planning about 80% of forward moving jobs with no local area residence requirement. A divisional HQ won't have as much meaning given that.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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"I’ve also heard that Grandview and Center are pretty good at the elementary level and that it’s just the secondary schools that are iffy"

As a grandparent of a student that just graduated from Grandview going from K to 12. Another granddaughter will start her sophomore year in August. Grandview may not be perfect, what school district is, but it is a school district that has educated my graanddaughters well.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:42 am
shinatoo wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:48 pm
I'm sure your intention wasn't to say this. But if you think about what you're saying it's really this; we shouldn't invest in areas that are full of poor people because those areas are nothing.

There are a lot of people and businesses in that area that we have to invest in if we're going to make Kansas City a great City. We will not be great unless we are all great. We won't build our tax base up and turn this city around if we're only investing in downtown. Not to mention that we desperately need housing like this.

We have to do both and we can do both.
1. "Don't invest in our neighborhoods we don't want gentrification!" and this isn't just about poor inner city neighborhoods

2. More importantly, it's all about creating synergy. Synergy is the most efficient way to create growth. Putting the entire Cerner campus in St. Joseph would have meager results compared to investing it in downtown.

Otherwise...why even invest the majority of things in downtown? Why not just equally spread it out everywhere? Because that's not efficient or even effective.
I 'm not arguing with investing in Downtown and trying to steer development and jobs there. The problem is a political one. There are council members, and residents, who represent other parts of the City who want investment there as well. There are only two council members who specifically represent Downtown. They can be outvoted by the others if it appears other parts of the City are being neglected. The Eastside has historically received the least development, and arguably had the fewest good jobs in the City.

The Northland probably benefits the most from River-Crown-Plaza development. That is where a majority of tax revenue is produced. It pays for their infrastructure since their low-density patterns cost the City likely more than their tax revenues cover. Yet, the Northland is often the most hostile and has more grievances than the East Side, which arguably has more reason to be. Yet, Northland residents and council members often oppose Downtown projects.

Like it or not, these factors have to be taken into consideration. Now, I'm with you on avoiding more investment and low-density sprawl on undeveloped farmland in far-reaching parts of KCMO.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by ericwyner »

aknowledgeableperson wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:20 pm "I’ve also heard that Grandview and Center are pretty good at the elementary level and that it’s just the secondary schools that are iffy"

As a grandparent of a student that just graduated from Grandview going from K to 12. Another granddaughter will start her sophomore year in August. Grandview may not be perfect, what school district is, but it is a school district that has educated my graanddaughters well.
it's a chicken and egg thing, test scores are more reflective of student demographics than their quality of instruction they receive, a student of color from a low income single parent family would likely also struggle in higher performing district, a white student from middle-upper income 2 parent family would likely succeed in a lower performing district and their parents would complain about them not being challenged
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

ericwyner wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:57 am
aknowledgeableperson wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:20 pm "I’ve also heard that Grandview and Center are pretty good at the elementary level and that it’s just the secondary schools that are iffy"

As a grandparent of a student that just graduated from Grandview going from K to 12. Another granddaughter will start her sophomore year in August. Grandview may not be perfect, what school district is, but it is a school district that has educated my graanddaughters well.
it's a chicken and egg thing, test scores are more reflective of student demographics than their quality of instruction they receive, a student of color from a low income single parent family would likely also struggle in higher performing district, a white student from middle-upper income 2 parent family would likely succeed in a lower performing district and their parents would complain about them not being challenged
It seems you would be surprised that the races of students doesn't really matter. No matter the race it is the student's home life is a big factor. Take race and even income status out of the equation out of your statement. Especially now that there are so many children who can be identified as biracial or multiracial
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by GRID »

aknowledgeableperson wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:05 am
ericwyner wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:57 am
aknowledgeableperson wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:20 pm "I’ve also heard that Grandview and Center are pretty good at the elementary level and that it’s just the secondary schools that are iffy"

As a grandparent of a student that just graduated from Grandview going from K to 12. Another granddaughter will start her sophomore year in August. Grandview may not be perfect, what school district is, but it is a school district that has educated my graanddaughters well.
it's a chicken and egg thing, test scores are more reflective of student demographics than their quality of instruction they receive, a student of color from a low income single parent family would likely also struggle in higher performing district, a white student from middle-upper income 2 parent family would likely succeed in a lower performing district and their parents would complain about them not being challenged
It seems you would be surprised that the races of students doesn't really matter. No matter the race it is the student's home life is a big factor. Take race and even income status out of the equation out of your statement. Especially now that there are so many children who can be identified as biracial or multiracial
Absolutely. But in KC the "best" districts are always the most affluent and white. It's easy to be a good district when your demographics are like that of south JoCo. If you are a top district when you are a massive district spread across many different demographics, races and incomes, then that's impressive. Montgomery County Maryland is like that and it's a very good district. Affluent all white districts have many problems too, especially with drugs and alcohol, but also the kids are often sheltered from a more real world from their parents. All while the parents are clueless as to what their kids are actually doing in those perfect schools and who they are interacting with.

For the most part a child's success in public schools is nearly entirely dependent on how they are raised at home. Districts like Center, Hickman Mills, Grandview and especially Raytown and Independence are totally fine. Not everybody can live in Blue Valley or even Lee's Summit. It all comes down to having a good home and good parents.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

Oracle shares jump up due to Cloud demand. Oracle Cloud now considered in a 'hyper-growth' phase even though not a top 5 global cloud player yet, plenty of room to grow. More justification for KC to pursue Oracle for Cloud data centers.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/13/oracle- ... -2022.html
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by Cratedigger »

Mayor Q was in SF, meeting with Oracle

https://twitter.com/quintonlucaskc/sta ... 16032?s=21
Excited to have @Oracle investing in our city! We discussed at their SF hub how they can expand their footprint in Kansas City, recruit exceptional diverse talent to our city, and how together we can keep building one of the best tech and business cities in America. @Cerner
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by AlkaliAxel »

freedog wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:08 pm Mayor Q was in SF, meeting with Oracle

https://twitter.com/quintonlucaskc/sta ... 16032?s=21
Excited to have @Oracle investing in our city! We discussed at their SF hub how they can expand their footprint in Kansas City, recruit exceptional diverse talent to our city, and how together we can keep building one of the best tech and business cities in America. @Cerner
Good. Might have to change my mind on how much effort I thought the city would put in to being aggressive. Hopefully he’s pitching them 1400 KC too.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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freedog wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:08 pm Mayor Q was in SF, meeting with Oracle

https://twitter.com/quintonlucaskc/sta ... 16032?s=21
Excited to have @Oracle investing in our city! We discussed at their SF hub how they can expand their footprint in Kansas City, recruit exceptional diverse talent to our city, and how together we can keep building one of the best tech and business cities in America. @Cerner
Will be interesting to see what he means by 'investing' as acquiring the company is an investment for Oracle so far, not KC. And the pattern so far has been nearly 80% of new local job postings not required to reside in KC area. Even just 30% would be concerning.

But given his SF trip, it's more proactive than I was expecting, ideally he has an arsenal of many options. Hope we see some real tangible $Bs of investment in KC come out of it, not soft 'investments' and weak commitments on paper.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by kboish »

I've heard that for existing Cerner employees Oracle is either doubling your pay or showing you the door
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

^Pretty common with acquisitions for some overlapping backoffice jobs to be eliminated and jump in pay to keep certain employees. A notable issue in this case is that there tends to be natural attrition as well over time and in this case apparently most of the replacements don't need to reside in KC area.

Will be interesting to what the nature of 'investing' means that Q alludes to. Could be immediately tangible, could be weak or easy to back out of.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

Transition moving quickly...

More on Cerner shift from Amazon AWS to Oracle Cloud, probably happening sooner than later...
https://accelerationeconomy.com/cloud-w ... at-cerner/

"Oracle reviewing Cerner products to identify where third-party tech can be removed"
https://www.fedscoop.com/oracle-reviewi ... e-removed/
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