Bannister Mall/Cerner

Jackson/Cass Suburbs, including South KC
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

daGOAT wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:04 am Totally luv this for the neighborhood but I am curious what the rents will be and if that 25 year abatement gets passed. Would really show where interest lies and how hypocritical voting down a project like Lux's really is.
^Yeah will be very interesting to see how abatement request plays out. Oracle will likely be pumping in/out many existing Oracle employees for projects during the transition and porting to Oracle Cloud that will go on for many years so could see Oracle themselves renting a good chunk of these units, especially given not much hotel stock around. It's a common practice to rent corporate apts with less hotel for transition of acquisitions at this scale, also used for short term contractors. The timing of announcement just after Oracle closing says much. I'd suspect it still happens even if incentives denied.

BTW the article states Cerner employed just over 6K at this campus as of last year. With nearly 80% of job postings not required onsite full time, will be surprising to see Oracle commit to any more office construction there. Would think a lot of conversion to non-dedicated desks with the existing buildings, which could increase capacity around 2X+ given rotation of hybrid employees. And of course local employment could potentially cut in half by end of decade anyway unless KC also established as a general Oracle Hub.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by shinatoo »

Not sure why you say this is in the middle of nothing. It's at the intersection of three major interstate highways and is surrounded by development in every direction.

Is it run down? Yes. but there was a time this was the center of suburban development in Kansas City. The infrastructure is already there. Easy to rebuild. Certainly not a greenfield.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

^Just to be clear I didn't say that, AA did...
AlkaliAxel wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:08 pm In other words, because we placed a campus out in the middle of nothing, now we're having apartments built in the middle of nowhere too instead of creating synergy
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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earthling wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:54 am ^Just to be clear I didn't say that, AA did...
AlkaliAxel wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:08 pm In other words, because we placed a campus out in the middle of nothing, now we're having apartments built in the middle of nowhere too instead of creating synergy
Yeah, I should have quoted them.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

Some possible scenarios with Bannister site...

- Oracle keeps existing incentives package and builds more office as planned and commits to employee count (this seems the least likely).

- Oracle forgoes incentives package, sells entire site off and leases those buildings as needed, allows other developer to continue Bannister site.

- Oracle keeps existing buildings (ownership) and develops rest of site for data centers with a different incentives package. Or they may prefer one of the Diode sites for data center.

- Oracle keeps existing buildings (ownership) and develops rest of site for true multi use with mix of housing/retail like The Glade but I'd be surprised if they commit to this level given already focused on Nashville as a major hub.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by AlkaliAxel »

shinatoo wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:51 am Not sure why you say this is in the middle of nothing. It's at the intersection of three major interstate highways and is surrounded by development in every direction.

Is it run down? Yes. but there was a time this was the center of suburban development in Kansas City. The infrastructure is already there. Easy to rebuild. Certainly not a greenfield.
And?

The Royals stadium has great highway access too. Wanna stay there too or build up on downtown?

It does us nothing to build that far outside the city center. Again, I say if you really want to do good big suburban projects you might as well just go to southern JoCo because they have some synergy going.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by GRID »

daGOAT wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:04 am Totally luv this for the neighborhood but I am curious what the rents will be and if that 25 year abatement gets passed. Would really show where interest lies and how hypocritical voting down a project like Lux's really is.
It's not much, but maybe it's a start. This infill project is the best thing that has come from this Cerner debacle since it was announced. I really hope this is just the first infill project for the area and I hope it actually happens.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by FangKC »

There is nothing wrong with developing the existing site with apartments simply to create more density in the area. It would help support the existing retail there.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by AlkaliAxel »

FangKC wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:56 pm There is nothing wrong with developing the existing site with apartments simply to create more density in the area. It would help support the existing retail there.
There is a problem. It’s another suburban island of sprawl.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by FangKC »

I don't know if it's considered sprawl now when the surrounding subdivisions were built in the 1950s and '60s. This is a redevelopment where infrastructure is built and needs more residents to help pay for it. There is also the problem that you do need enough population density in the area to support the existing retail, which has a recent history of struggling. I am not promoting single-family houses. I am promoting covering those parking lots with a walkable street grid with denser multi-family. This creates more housing for nearby workers of the office buildings. Even the remote workers can live close enough to the office to walk or bike for short face-time situations. This allows more workers to live close by and not drive long distances to work. It also creates a good node for increased mass transit, and the possibility of running KCATA buses through those parking lots. Multi-family apartments would also provide housing options for SF senior homeowners in those neighborhoods who want to downsize into an apartment or townhouse but still remain in their neighborhood.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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^Would be ideal if the actual Cerner site added more housing/retail but hard to imagine Oracle going there given Nashville commitments (would be impressive if they did, won't count it out) and much of their forward budgeting/CAPEX going toward more Oracle Cloud data centers - higher demand than constructing new office campuses.

Oracle might sell remaining or entire site to someone like the Aspiria developer, which did a decent job turning the Sprint campus ('prison camp') into something more functional. But that site already had a significant economic engine and high income surrounding it.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by daGOAT »

earthling wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:26 pm ^Would be ideal if the actual Cerner site added more housing/retail but hard to imagine Oracle going there given Nashville commitments (would be impressive if they did, won't count it out) and much of their forward budgeting/CAPEX going toward more Oracle Cloud data centers - higher demand than constructing new office campuses.

Oracle might sell remaining or entire site to someone like the Aspiria developer, which did a decent job turning the Sprint campus ('prison camp') into something more functional. But that site already had a significant economic engine and high income surrounding it.
Aspiria is a good example for a possible positive outcome. T-Mobile leases a significant portion; if Oracle made a similar move it would be a pretty big win for retaining some office jobs within city limits. Actually now that the privatized Cerner prison complex... I mean office complex is in limbo there's a decent chance more of these properties can develop mixed use.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by AlkaliAxel »

daGOAT wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:03 pm
earthling wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:26 pm ^Would be ideal if the actual Cerner site added more housing/retail but hard to imagine Oracle going there given Nashville commitments (would be impressive if they did, won't count it out) and much of their forward budgeting/CAPEX going toward more Oracle Cloud data centers - higher demand than constructing new office campuses.

Oracle might sell remaining or entire site to someone like the Aspiria developer, which did a decent job turning the Sprint campus ('prison camp') into something more functional. But that site already had a significant economic engine and high income surrounding it.
Aspiria is a good example for a possible positive outcome. T-Mobile leases a significant portion; if Oracle made a similar move it would be a pretty big win for retaining some office jobs within city limits. Actually now that the privatized Cerner prison complex... I mean office complex is in limbo there's a decent chance more of these properties can develop mixed use.
I grew up a minute from "Aspiria" or whatever it is now. It's surrounded by Town Center, AMC HQ, tons and tons of restaurants, stores & other offices for miles & miles. Lots of good quality neighborhoods too. It's a pretty vibrant & dense area. *That* is the type of area that I think goes well with a giant campus like this. Spinoff development can work there.

What I don't think works well with the Cerner campus is that...it basically has none of that. It's just creating an island. If this were southern JoCo, I think it'd be a totally different story.

My philosophy on KC is this:
If you're gonna invest in Missouri- go to urban KC
If you're gonna be invest Kansas- go to south JoCo

Anything else is just sprawl that feeds nothing & horrific space use IMO
Last edited by AlkaliAxel on Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

daGOAT wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:03 pm
earthling wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:26 pm ^Would be ideal if the actual Cerner site added more housing/retail but hard to imagine Oracle going there given Nashville commitments (would be impressive if they did, won't count it out) and much of their forward budgeting/CAPEX going toward more Oracle Cloud data centers - higher demand than constructing new office campuses.

Oracle might sell remaining or entire site to someone like the Aspiria developer, which did a decent job turning the Sprint campus ('prison camp') into something more functional. But that site already had a significant economic engine and high income surrounding it.
Aspiria is a good example for a possible positive outcome. T-Mobile leases a significant portion; if Oracle made a similar move it would be a pretty big win for retaining some office jobs within city limits. Actually now that the privatized Cerner prison complex... I mean office complex is in limbo there's a decent chance more of these properties can develop mixed use.
It might be good for the site but Oracle selling it off may mean lack of commitment towards KC.

Ideally we see a monetary commitment and some kind of engine that would grow or at least maintain local jobs. DCs and designating KC as an Oracle Hub would increase those chances. Selling Bannister site and making KC Health HQ on paper probably bad news if it doesn't include some kind of notable investment.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by AlkaliAxel »

earthling wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:32 pm
It might be good for the site but Oracle selling it off may mean lack of commitment towards KC.

Ideally we see a monetary commitment and some kind of engine that would grow or at least maintain local jobs. DCs and designating KC as an Oracle Hub would increase those chances. Selling Bannister site and making KC Health HQ on paper probably bad news if it doesn't include some kind of notable investment.
What if just cut a deal with Oracle where we support them selling the sprawl sites if they just put up employees & signage in 1400KC?
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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South KC was the high growth suburban area of KC at one time. Raytown was top suburb with good schools. South KC went from rapid growth to none at all literally overnight because the city put a shit ton of section eight housing out there in the Ruskin/Hickman Mills area and created mass white flight.

The Cerner Campus could have rebranded the entire area and caused a massive influx of young people looking for affordable homes in modest areas. Instead, the Cerner campus was built more like a federal prison as far as how it interacts with the surrounding area. It's not even comparable to the Sprint Campus in any way. It was nothing but a corporate welfare project. Cerner did not give one fuck about South Kansas City.

Now that they are out there, they need to try to get something out of it and new construction residential in an infill location that has not seen investment in decades is absolutely awesome for the area.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by FangKC »

Whatever Oracle does out there, the City really needs to revoke that closure of Hillcrest and those security gates. If Oracle wants to control who accesses their parking lots, that's a different matter, but Cerner shouldn't have been allowed to close down a city artery to do it.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by shinatoo »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:31 pm
daGOAT wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:03 pm
earthling wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:26 pm ^Would be ideal if the actual Cerner site added more housing/retail but hard to imagine Oracle going there given Nashville commitments (would be impressive if they did, won't count it out) and much of their forward budgeting/CAPEX going toward more Oracle Cloud data centers - higher demand than constructing new office campuses.

Oracle might sell remaining or entire site to someone like the Aspiria developer, which did a decent job turning the Sprint campus ('prison camp') into something more functional. But that site already had a significant economic engine and high income surrounding it.
Aspiria is a good example for a possible positive outcome. T-Mobile leases a significant portion; if Oracle made a similar move it would be a pretty big win for retaining some office jobs within city limits. Actually now that the privatized Cerner prison complex... I mean office complex is in limbo there's a decent chance more of these properties can develop mixed use.
I grew up a minute from "Aspiria" or whatever it is now. It's surrounded by Town Center, AMC HQ, tons and tons of restaurants, stores & other offices for miles & miles. Lots of good quality neighborhoods too. It's a pretty vibrant & dense area. *That* is the type of area that I think goes well with a giant campus like this. Spinoff development can work there.

What I don't think works well with the Cerner campus is that...it basically has none of that. It's just creating an island. If this were southern JoCo, I think it'd be a totally different story.

My philosophy on KC is this:
If you're gonna invest in Missouri- go to urban KC
If you're gonna be invest Kansas- go to south JoCo

Anything else is just sprawl that feeds nothing & horrific space use IMO
I'm sure your intention wasn't to say this. But if you think about what you're saying it's really this; we shouldn't invest in areas that are full of poor people because those areas are nothing.

There are a lot of people and businesses in that area that we have to invest in if we're going to make Kansas City a great City. We will not be great unless we are all great. We won't build our tax base up and turn this city around if we're only investing in downtown. Not to mention that we desperately need housing like this.

We have to do both and we can do both.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by ericwyner »

FangKC wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:20 pm Whatever Oracle does out there, the City really needs to revoke that closure of Hillcrest and those security gates. If Oracle wants to control who accesses their parking lots, that's a different matter, but Cerner shouldn't have been allowed to close down a city artery to do it.
I think their data centers required that closure
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

GRID wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:05 pm South KC was the high growth suburban area of KC at one time. Raytown was top suburb with good schools. South KC went from rapid growth to none at all literally overnight because the city put a shit ton of section eight housing out there in the Ruskin/Hickman Mills area and created mass white flight.
I moved to the area in 1973. It was a solid lower to mid middle class area. It was about 75/76 when a subdivision developer went bottoms up on a development near the Grandview border. It was being financed by HUD so when HUD took it over that's when the area started to turn. Afterwards at some point in time the Bannister Federal Complex at Troost started winding down so the area started to loose jobs. Left the area in 87 and the area was still in decent shape but saw the handwriting on the wall. Had a family in the neighborhood who had a son play professional football in Canada. During an Canadian TV interview he stated he grew up in the ghetto. It was far from being the ghetto when he grew up there.
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