Bannister Mall/Cerner

Jackson/Cass Suburbs, including South KC
earthling
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

^A reason KCMO should entice Oracle to make KC a general Oracle Hub, not just Health HQ. There are many O Hubs hubs but pretty much all of them have a much higher cost of living than KC. Some may consider KC, a small % of 80K+ US employees is worth pursuing.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by FangKC »

Highlander wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:14 pm
FangKC wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:22 am If the region continues to go big on alternative energy (solar/wind farms), cheaper energy costs could be one incentive that few people are talking about here. You can incentivize short-term with tax abatements, and TIF that expires at some point. However, predictable cheap energy, combined with cheaper office costs, housing, etc., are pretty attractive things to promote to a large company like Oracle -- especially for data centers.
I wonder why they moved to Austin if Oracle is truly concerned about cost of living. Austin has to have among the highest cost of living in the US right now. My son rents a broken down house (considerably less than 1000 sq ft) on a small lot in Austin. The owner is trying to sell it for 1.25 million. Just crazy real estate inflation there (and property taxes are pretty high in TX - albeit, they don't pay state income tax). KC would be a great option for a lot of their employees that have to be wondering if they are ever going to afford a home.
Probably just for access to tech talent.

Austin probably seems cheaper compared to San Jose, San Francisco, and Seattle.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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Highlander wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:14 pm
FangKC wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:22 am If the region continues to go big on alternative energy (solar/wind farms), cheaper energy costs could be one incentive that few people are talking about here. You can incentivize short-term with tax abatements, and TIF that expires at some point. However, predictable cheap energy, combined with cheaper office costs, housing, etc., are pretty attractive things to promote to a large company like Oracle -- especially for data centers.
I wonder why they moved to Austin if Oracle is truly concerned about cost of living.
none of those socialist success taxes in TX like they have CA :lol: , I'm sure Larry Ellison would have the whole HQ to MO if Parson gave him even lower tax rate
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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ericwyner wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:27 pm
Highlander wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:14 pm
FangKC wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:22 am If the region continues to go big on alternative energy (solar/wind farms), cheaper energy costs could be one incentive that few people are talking about here. You can incentivize short-term with tax abatements, and TIF that expires at some point. However, predictable cheap energy, combined with cheaper office costs, housing, etc., are pretty attractive things to promote to a large company like Oracle -- especially for data centers.
I wonder why they moved to Austin if Oracle is truly concerned about cost of living.
none of those socialist success taxes in TX like they have CA :lol: , I'm sure Larry Ellison would have the whole HQ to MO if Parson gave him even lower tax rate
These big west coast companies are only choosing the hot cities to relocate to. Austin, Nashville etc. There are so many other more affordable places they could go where cities and states would give them blank checks to move to. It's just like Amazon's HQ. They had hundreds of options from cities and states that would have given them far more, but they chose a very expensive area across the river from DC and VA didn't offer a fraction of the incentives.

It's not just low taxes and incentives. The Bannister Center complex was one of the biggest corporate welfare projects in the country (still may be the biggest). And it still has a chance of becoming mostly vacant over the next ten years with little additional development happening around it.

All because of its extremely poor design. Had that project been built in the nicer more urban parts of the city or had the project been properly designed where its at as a true mixed used urban redevelopment, things would be different.

Most companies know that people need to want to work in their offices and there is nothing enticing about those four office buildings sitting alone surrounded by parking lots among acres of dirt fields off an interstate in a high crime suburban area.

Cerner had a chance to totally re-invent and re-brand that area of South KC with that development. It's hard to even comprehend how big of a fail that project has been and it's all due to how it was designed.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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Looking at Oracle and Cerner jobs sites, both have nearly 80% of job postings listed as some form of virtual/remote/hybrid not tied to any one location. A good chunk of Cerner and Oracle virtual job applicants can reside anywhere, though many postings also desire or require choosing one of their hub approved cities (3-10+ possibilities depending on role).

This probably is not a short term thing, remote/distributed workers were part of Oracle culture before pandemic. So to offset possibility of many KC Cerner jobs being distributed elsewhere over time, should be a high priority for KC to pursue an Oracle Hub. As difficult as it is for KC to draw a large chunk of corporate jobs from the outside, there a realistic opportunity to draw more Oracle employees beyond Health division.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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^ all the more reason that those isolated single use, secured from the public buildings have a chance of becoming barley used and little if any additional development will occur around it.

If that office space were built as part of a mixed used neighborhood of residential and services, I could see Oracle finding a way to make it work or it being repurposed with a different company or as a multi tenant office complex.

The bannister project was a terribly designed and decades out of date project before covid and the migration to wfh. Now it's a freaking dinosaur and it's brand new.
Last edited by GRID on Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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^Either turn Bannister into a full blown multi-use site or transition site to data centers, keep existing office and add office downtown, which would at least give workers urban/suburban options. The latter might have better economic impact and longer term commitment.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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Do you mean build new data centers on the land adjacent or convert the office buildings into data centers? Would probably be a good spot for those large data centers, but they seem to go in more rural areas.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by AlkaliAxel »

GRID wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:04 pm Do you mean build new data centers on the land adjacent or convert the office buildings into data centers? Would probably be a good spot for those large data centers, but they seem to go in more rural areas.
Look just give me some employee's and signage for 1400KC with Oracle and I don't care what happens. They can use, burn down, leave empty all the other Cerner properties for all I care- just give a little bit for 1400KC and I'll be satisfied. Heck send everyone remote outside of that building, I don't care. Just give us this one for downtown. That's all.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:08 pm
GRID wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:04 pm Do you mean build new data centers on the land adjacent or convert the office buildings into data centers? Would probably be a good spot for those large data centers, but they seem to go in more rural areas.
Look just give me some employee's and signage for 1400KC with Oracle and I don't care what happens. They can use, burn down, leave empty all the other Cerner properties for all I care- just give a little bit for 1400KC and I'll be satisfied. Heck send everyone remote outside of that building, I don't care. Just give us this one for downtown. That's all.
Pretty sad when you are begging for somebody to lease such a small building. Isn't that like 250,000 sq ft or something? Or like half the size of one of those four Bannister buildings? But yeah, just having somebody like that put their name on the building would mean so much.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by AlkaliAxel »

GRID wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:09 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:08 pm
GRID wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:04 pm Do you mean build new data centers on the land adjacent or convert the office buildings into data centers? Would probably be a good spot for those large data centers, but they seem to go in more rural areas.
Look just give me some employee's and signage for 1400KC with Oracle and I don't care what happens. They can use, burn down, leave empty all the other Cerner properties for all I care- just give a little bit for 1400KC and I'll be satisfied. Heck send everyone remote outside of that building, I don't care. Just give us this one for downtown. That's all.
Pretty sad when you are begging for somebody to lease such a small building. Isn't that like 250,000 sq ft or something? Or like half the size of one of those four Bannister buildings? But yeah, just having somebody like that put their name on the building would mean so much.
No. We can prob get someone to take this building. I just want Oracle to to be in it. I want a company like that downtown.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

A 250K sqft space is quite a bit for a site that could be intended for constantly rotating remote/hybrid workers coming in only 1-3 days a week if even that. Can be setup with mostly no dedicated desks, similar to co-working/flex spaces like WeWork/PlexPod. Oracle could use that for both Cerner and any Oracle employees that live downtown or up North. And if successful, could potentially expand to more downtown buildings while still offering the original Bannister site offices for whoever wants that (the rest for data centers unless they do go full tilt with a proper mixed use site).

Oracle is not setup with dedicated desks for many roles, allowing to switch sites as desired. I didn't have a dedicated desk for last 8 years, working in/out of offices around country/world as a digital nomad (based out of KC). It's wonderful freedom.

With an entire new AAA building available soon at a rate far lower than big city downtowns, there's an opportunity for KC to entice Oracle to consider this.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by alejandro46 »

I have no inside info, but CERN-Oracle ("Cernacle") should SELL SELL SELL its RE holdings. They have WAY too much SQFT. Realizations for sure. They put a lot of money into keeping that building up and renovating portions, but after the pandemic I think it surely is basically empty. Sold Oaks. Trying to sell Riverport probably will get pennies on the dollar. Continuous needs to be subleased/sold. WHQ and Innovations probably only ones needed and cease expansion of Innovations for now.

I always through the Visitor Center was not a good use of money at WHQ, and boom when the pandemic hit ... Clients aren't doing giant site visits anymore. Cernacle moving into WR is highly unlikely.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

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^Oracle has been selling office holdings in Bay Area as they add Nashville office but they are constantly adding data centers (14 new facilities globally in planning), so that might be a better use for Bannister site. With nearly 80% of job postings not committed to any location KC needs to aggressively offer what it can to keep jobs and expand Oracle investment. Data centers are relatively more permanent even though fewer jobs but still an economic booster that can last many decades. A downtown office location would be an option if Bannister site transitions to DCs and WR building is available. Enticing Oracle to consider KC as a general Oracle Hub can help offset the otherwise inevitable.

We could wait and see what they do, but could be too late. The actual action so far doesn't look good for KC long term. At least offer all possibilities that we are able to feasibly come up with (such as WR with a DC incentives package along with other incentive package options).

We shouldn't try to second guess what they may not want, just put it out there anyway because it's available.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by AlkaliAxel »

alejandro46 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:46 pm I have no inside info, but CERN-Oracle ("Cernacle") should SELL SELL SELL its RE holdings. They have WAY too much SQFT. Realizations for sure. They put a lot of money into keeping that building up and renovating portions, but after the pandemic I think it surely is basically empty. Sold Oaks. Trying to sell Riverport probably will get pennies on the dollar. Continuous needs to be subleased/sold. WHQ and Innovations probably only ones needed and cease expansion of Innovations for now.

I always through the Visitor Center was not a good use of money at WHQ, and boom when the pandemic hit ... Clients aren't doing giant site visits anymore. Cernacle moving into WR is highly unlikely.
I think it's possible if the city pushes for it. Lucas might want that scalp since it would be very big and public news.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by alejandro46 »

earthling wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:57 pm ^Oracle has been selling office holdings in Bay Area as they add Nashville office but they are constantly adding data centers (14 new facilities globally in planning), so that might be a better use for Bannister site. With nearly 80% of job postings not committed to any location KC needs to aggressively offer what it can to keep jobs and expand Oracle investment. Data centers are relatively more permanent even though fewer jobs but still an economic booster that can last many decades. A downtown office location would be an option if Bannister site transitions to DCs and WR building is available. Enticing Oracle to consider KC as a general Oracle Hub can help offset the otherwise inevitable.

We could wait and see what they do, but could be too late. The actual action so far doesn't look good for KC long term. At least offer all possibilities that we are able to feasibly come up with (such as WR with a DC incentives package along with other incentive package options).

We shouldn't try to second guess what they may not want, just put it out there anyway because it's available.
Due to AWS, Cerner wasn't building out Data Center space. Now that Oracle has come into place, not sure how that fits into the puzzle. Cerner will need to fulfill it's previously agreed to obligations under that agreement, or potentially buyout/exit the agreement in favor of Oracle's cloud which may or may not have been under consideration for the Cloud hosting agreement. The DoD also may require them to say on AWS as well.

(What I'm talking about: https://www.cerner.com/aws)
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by earthling »

^From what I've read/heard they will eventually port most everything over to Oracle Cloud, especially their hands-free voice-based UI as a higher priority. A major reason for the acquisition is to get Health services on Oracle Cloud and entice other Health related companies/IT shops to use their Health Cloud APIs that come out of this.

There will likely be some legacy systems and maybe some backend systems they'll keep on AWS for a while but the forward moving front facing products with a new UI will be transitioned to Oracle Cloud ASAP, that's very clear. AWS and remaining Cerner data centers will of course eventually be lifecycled out. And the developers who port it don't necessarily need to reside in KC office (port or new product line, whatever the path). I'd bet most of the port related developers will come from Oracle Cloud/Dev employees who use existing Cerner Dev teams for aid, not primary Dev team (maybe based in KC on paper at best). However the Cerner Biz unit and IT Program Managers understand Health better than Oracle and they'll have much more influence and staying power for a KC presence - the coders and trainers can be wherever.

My guess is that if KC doesn't make a major effort to keep Cerner jobs throwing out all possibilities on the table with restructured incentives, local employment will be cut below half by end of decade. Need to find ways to encourage Oracle to invest forward into KC, not allow it to ride out. Data centers are a forward long term commitment and adding an Oracle Cloud region in KC could help keep Health jobs stronger than if not broadening out with all possibilities. As would establishing another Oracle Hub in KC beyond Health division.

edit:
“Oracle’s Autonomous Database, low-code development tools, and Voice Digital Assistant user interface enables us to rapidly modernize Cerner’s systems and move them to our Gen2 Cloud,” said Mike Sicilia, Executive Vice President, Vertical Industries, Oracle. “This can be done very quickly because Cerner’s largest business and most important clinical system already runs on the Oracle Database. No change required there. What will change is the user interface. We will make Cerner’s systems much easier to learn and use by making Oracle’s hands-free Voice Digital Assistant the primary interface to Cerner’s clinical systems. This will allow medical professionals to spend less time typing on computer keyboards and more time caring for patients.”
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by FangKC »

Indiana developer plans apartment community across from Cerner Innovations Campus
Pedcor Investments, part of Carmel, Indiana-based Pedcor Cos., recently filed preliminary plans for the Trails at Bannister, a 342-apartment community across about 24.5 vacant acres just south of Cerner's campus, southwest of 93rd Street and Kansas City Southern railroad tracks.

The plans reflect 19 three-story multifamily buildings with 18 units apiece to be built in two phases. There would be into 96 one-, 180 two- and 66 three-bedroom units, to be served by 684 total surface, covered and garage parking spaces — above a 342-space requirement under city code.

The city's Schumacher Park, which sits at the site's northern edge, would be preserved.
...
The City Plan Commission is scheduled July 19 to review an urban redevelopment rezoning request in connection with Pedcor's plans.

Its development team includes Rosemann & Associates PC as architect and McClure Engineering as civil engineer.
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... zWDm_hfdy0

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https://www.google.com/maps/@38.955060 ... a=!3m1!1e3
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by AlkaliAxel »

In other words, because we placed a campus out in the middle of nothing, now we're having apartments built in the middle of nowhere too instead of creating synergy
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Re: Bannister Mall/Cerner

Post by daGOAT »

Totally luv this for the neighborhood but I am curious what the rents will be and if that 25 year abatement gets passed. Would really show where interest lies and how hypocritical voting down a project like Lux's really is.
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