A "real" science museum at Union Station

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:35 pm

Science museum revamps strategy
Different funding, â€˜character' planned
By JEFFREY SPIVAK The Kansas City Star

Union Station officials are embarking on an ambitious fund-raising strategy to â€œchange the entire characterâ€

DiggityDawg · Post by **DiggityDawg** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:35 pm

At this point I think they should just scrap the whole "educational/museum" concept & use Union Station as a place to house things people in the Downtown area could actually USE, like a grocery store & maybe some nice theatres.

I just don't see people from surrounding areas coming to this site in large enough numbers no matter what they put in there.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:42 pm

History of Kansas City museum.

I like the idea of putting more retail in then north waiting room too.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:46 pm

DiggityDawg wrote:At this point I think they should just scrap the whole "educational/museum" concept & use Union Station as a place to house things people in the Downtown area could actually USE, like a grocery store & maybe some nice theatres.

I just don't see people from surrounding areas coming to this site in large enough numbers no matter what they put in there.

A GROCERY STORE IN UNION STATION?!?!?! IS THIS CITY SO IGNORANT THAT THEY WOULD RATHER NOT HAVE A SCIENCE MUSEUM, BUT INSTEAD HAVE MORE GROCERIES AND MOVIE THEATERS! WHY NOT PUT A CASINO IN THERE TOO!?!

Seriously, people in KC were disappointed with Science City because it's more of a kiddie attraction/playland instead of an actual educational smithsonian-type science museum. They could've developed the current Science City in Blue Ridge Mall instead of our beautiful historic Union Station. Put your damn grocery store in Kemper Arena.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:55 pm

KC wrote:History of Kansas City museum.

I like the idea of putting more retail in then north waiting room too.

Missouri/Kansas lacks a world-class Natural History Museum. We could combine the best of both Natural and Living History related to Missouri/Kansas under one roof. It would be nice, but probably too expensive to completely change the entire "science" concept currently constructed there.

Anyhow, maybe Diggity thinks we should sell used cars in the Union Station parking lot was well. A grocery, a casino, a barbeque joint, and a flea market all at Union Station. The absolute best of KC! "Come on down to Union Station and get the best deals in town! We left that stupid educational stuff for other world-class cities!"

tat2kc · Post by **tat2kc** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:00 pm

I think they were considering more retail along the north waiting room, because that will also be the route to the new bridge to the freighthouse. Addtionally, the owners of the Union Cafe are tinkering with the menu and the concept to draw more people in to eat. Seems like things are slowly moving in the right direction. Once the IRS folks are moving in, and the post office gets in there, I think things will pick up.

It will always be hard, though to generate enough money to operate the actual station itself. So much is simply public space that does not generate revenue. I have no issue with a subsidy from the public to maintian those public spaces.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:04 pm

BTW, how many members on this forum have actually visited Science City? I have, so I can talk shit about why it needs to be changed by adding some real adult educational objects and exhibits.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:06 pm

Man, I hate to say this, but his is going to fail big time. I said the same thing before they opened Science City. Here is the problem:

Museums, especially science museums are not profitable businesses. So first off, we are trying to force a science museum to pay for itself through ticket sales and some donations and that alone is a problem. But this museum also has to make enough money to pay for the extremely expensive costs associated with maintaining Union Station and it’s utilities etc. Can’t be done. Now they are taking out a first class planetarium and changing some of the exhibits. This is not a long term fix.

People need to realize that if KC wants a first class science museum, then, KC needs to fund it. The whole metro area needs to fund it. This is why KC needs something that nearly every other metropolitan area has. A continuous culture tax to fund things like the zoo, stadiums, the arts center and union station. Also, ticket prices need to come down a lot. From free to 5 bucks. Get a million people in the door and then charge them for an IMAX, planetarium show or gifts. All you have to do is go to St. Louis and see how this can be done.

Union Station needs something for adults. Why not bring an ESPN Zone to the former location of Fitz’s Rootbeer? This would be an instantaneous hit in sports crazy KC and a major destination point for tourists.

There are a lot of things that can be done, but I don’t think anybody in this town knows what the hell they are doing.

tat2kc · Post by **tat2kc** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:24 pm

the bi-state tax funded the construction, but not the day to day operation. that was a mistake. We should have had a tax that provided ongoing funding for the science museum and the Station. It'll never be profitable, and should not be expected to.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:55 pm

GRID wrote:Man, I hate to say this, but his is going to fail big time. I said the same thing before they opened Science City. Here is the problem:

Museums, especially science museums are not profitable businesses. So first off, we are trying to force a science museum to pay for itself through ticket sales and some donations and that alone is a problem. But this museum also has to make enough money to pay for the extremely expensive costs associated with maintaining Union Station and itâ€™s utilities etc. Canâ€™t be done. Now they are taking out a first class planetarium and changing some of the exhibits. This is not a long term fix.

People need to realize that if KC wants a first class science museum, then, KC needs to fund it. The whole metro area needs to fund it. This is why KC needs something that nearly every other metropolitan area has. A continuous culture tax to fund things like the zoo, stadiums, the arts center and union station. Also, ticket prices need to come down a lot. From free to 5 bucks. Get a million people in the door and then charge them for an IMAX, planetarium show or gifts. All you have to do is go to St. Louis and see how this can be done.

Union Station needs something for adults. Why not bring an ESPN Zone to the former location of Fitzâ€™s Rootbeer? This would be an instantaneous hit in sports crazy KC and a major destination point for tourists.

There are a lot of things that can be done, but I donâ€™t think anybody in this town knows what the hell they are doing.

That's our problem, we always look towards St. Louis. The best thing about St. Louis is that the Art Museum, Zoo and Science Museum are all FREE!!! That's great, but St. Louis is also one of the only cities in America that offer such attractions for free. I do, however, agree that Science City should drop their prices to about $6.50 per adult. Besides the St. Louis Science Museum, I've been to these science museums...

1. Scitrek, The Science & Technology Museum of Atlanta ($7.75 plus $5 parking)
2. Milwaukee Discovery World and Museum of Science & Technology ($6.00 plus $2 parking)
3. Science Museum of Minnesota ($13.50 plus $4 parking)
4. Science Center of Des Moines ($5.50)
5. Science Place of Dallas ($6.00 plus $5 parking)
6. Great Lakes Science Center ($7.95 plus $4 parking)
7. COSI Columbus ($12.00)
8. Cincinatti Museum of Natural History & Science ($6.50)
9. The Field Museum - Chicago ($10.00 plus $7 parking)
10. Little Rock Museum of Discovery ($5.95)
11. Exploration Place of Wichita ($8.00)
12. Omniplex of Oklahoma City ($7.50)
13. Sacramento's Discovery Museum Science & Space Center ($5.00)
14. Louisville Science Center ($6.50)
15. Cumberland Science Museum - Nashville ($7.95)

scooterj · Post by **scooterj** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:55 pm

I've been to Science City.... once. I have been to COSI in Columbus, OH at least a dozen times.... including three since Science City opened. Science City is easily the dullest science museum I have ever seen. It's truly just an indoor playground... very little substance at all. Bringing in actual artifacts is definitely the way to go if they want repeat visitors.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:12 pm

I toured Science City once....did seem more like a playground with a hint of science.

I like the idea of more retail to help tie it with the pedestrian bridge...even if it is things like gift shops for KC, etc.

the museum can work but everybody needs to realize that none of these science museums are self sufficient....if we want it, we have to pay for it.

BurningMustard · Post by **BurningMustard** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:56 pm

Why not bring an ESPN Zone to the former location of Fitzâ€™s Rootbeer? This would be an instantaneous hit in sports crazy KC and a major destination point for tourists.

Yes!

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:09 pm

actually I always thought a Gameworks would work well in that space....leave something like ESPNzone attached to the new arena.

REason I say gameworks is it kind of ties together the kids museum theme....just older kids come play games later.

zonk · Post by **zonk** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:34 pm

I like the casino idea....bring a liitle excitement to downtown...

scooterj · Post by **scooterj** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:19 pm

A Gameworks would be awesome there.... except parents and teachers would never be able to drag the kids into the museum.

ignatius · Post by **ignatius** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:24 pm

If it were free or dirt cheap (which it should be), Science City would still likely not attract much attendance. Liberty Memorial is only 2 bucks to go up the top and I never see anyone up there over my lunch hour. Union Station needs to somehow balance catering to neighboring urban-minded residents while unfortunately needing to appease the suburbanites. Ideally it wouldn't have to have an attraction to draw suburbanites but since the Bi-state tax paid for the renovation, something needs to be there for the metro. Shouldn't be kid-based though.

As much as I'd hate to see Union Station turn into a generic tourist trappey destination, I'm beginning to believe that a casino and ESPN Zone type thing is about all that might regularly draw large crowds from the burbs. I'm almost buying into the idea of turning Science City into a casino and Fritz's into a Zone. (I can't believe I just said that.) If/when the commuter rail line starts from JoCo and Lee's Summit, the casino would draw many along those paths.

The IRS project and pedestrian bridge to Crossroards should help to but probably won't be enough. BTW, what is the status of the bridge? I thought it would be U/C by now.

TheDude · Post by **TheDude** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:32 pm

Science City/Union Station is a flop cause:

1. Hall Family Foundation (aka owners of Crown Center) indicated that they would only financially support the renovation of US if they restricted retail opportunities (restaurants, bars, etc) so as not to compete with the crappy stores at Crown Center. (they got their buddies in the establishment to back em up).

That is why there are only 2 restaurants and a handful of nasty fast food shops (oh, and dont forget the fudge factory) in US.

2. Midwest Research Insitute (MRI) conducted an economic impact study which was extremely biased by the establishment looking to benefit by the renovation (contractors, design firms, council members w/ envelopes of cash under the table, etc). The study showed a huge positive impact ot the area which has never (and will never) occur unless they get serious about adding more tenants to the station.

And why in the hell does anyone think that 6000 IRS employees are going to help out w/ the situation? You think a paper pusher making $12 per hour is going to have a nice leg of lamb lunch at Pierponts? sheeeesh, and dont even get me started about the tacky, low rate science city. what a piece of crap. and what about the transporation hub that was supposed to materialize??

As the rhythm designed to bounce
What counts is that the rhymes
Designed to fill your mind
Now that you've realized the prides arrived
We got to pump the stuff to make us tough
from the heart
It's a start, a work of art
To revolutionize make a change nothin's strange
People, people we are the same
No we're not the same
Cause we don't know the game
What we need is awareness, we can't get careless
You say what is this?
My beloved lets get down to business
Mental self defensive fitness
(Yo) bum rush the show
You gotta go for what you know
Make everybody see, in order to fight the powers that be
(faint voice in background) Lemme hear you say...
Fight the Power

ignatius · Post by **ignatius** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:46 pm

TheDude wrote:Science City/Union Station is a flop cause:
That is why there are only 2 restaurants and a handful of nasty fast food shops (oh, and dont forget the fudge factory) in US.

Actually, I tend to eat at Union Station for lunch more than CC. The new Spanish/Mexican place is more authentic than most places on SW Blvd - best damn chorrizo/eggs and heuvos and the salsa bar is fresh and even has cilantro and limes!! Mmmm. I'll take Goodcents over Subway and Original Pizza pizza may suck but the stromboli and sausage roll are better than I've had anywhere in KC. These are definitely not 'nasty'. What do you want, a McDonalds? Broadway Cafe needs to take over the espresso bar though, it's pretty bad watery coffee. The only thing I particularly like in CC is the sushi, Einstein and Bronx subs. I miss the Nutty Girl sandwiches. Pierponts and Union Cafe may not be top notch but they are way better than the disgusting Milano and worse, Streetcar Desire. The burrito wrap is also quite bad. Wish it could be a Mesa Wrap.

Anywho, I doubt Union Station could support more restaurants than it already has until the immediate residential base increases. Drawing surburbanites and Midtowners are not the way to support restaurants in the evening. The pedestrian bridge should help bring in the Crossroads residents. CC needs to get off their butt and build more residential towers along with the SF Tower so that CC can be livelier in the evening. The strip along Western Auto is mostly going residential so that should help as well.

Post by **dangerboy** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:12 pm

We made three mistakes...
1) Grossly over-estimating the attendance
2) Creating a business plan that required the highest ticket price of any science museam in the country
3) Assuming that a museam could be self-supporting without any ongoing public funding