KC area Transit master plan LIGHT RAIL OR BUST!

[Anthony_Hugo98]

I would also plan to add more urban trams to compliment the LRT. I don't see how the current tram line could be a part of this, so LRT would have to run along a different corridor in the urban core like Troost till it gets closer to downtown and then it can jump onto Oak or something.

I also forgot to mention, there’s underlayers to this map as well showing Streetcar master buildout as well as further MAX lines and how they’d interconnect to the network. Just not quite finished on those renders yet. It has been thought of though

[Anthony_Hugo98]

The biggest question is not the routes, its the funding. The funding will determine the routes.
Anyways, if I could Sim City it, I'd largely reconstruct some of the old SC routes but leave out others (like Excelsior).

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

The local funding aspect is the reason why this reaches as many parts of the metro as possible, to ensure a regional vote wouldn’t be DOA

[GRID]

It's a fine design. The problem is that all the ends of those lines (Legends, Lee's Summit, Olathe, Belton, etc) their whole goal is to literally keep you from going downtown. And they SURE don't want people from downtown coming out to them. There is only one single way to get this type of plan to materialize: the urban core has to start winning, and winning big! Major corporate relocations to the city have to exclusively be choosing DT, when talking about the best schools in the metro DT has to get conversation, crime has to nosedive, stadiums only want to be DT, etc. Otherwise, Lee's Summit is going to try and build themselves an island you never have to leave. Same for Overland Park and the Northland. Quit trying to connect to people that don't want to connect to us. Compete at all levels.

This.

Honestly, just build out the tram system with many more lines in the city for people that want to be there. There really is no demand for regional LRT in KC. It's just way to easy to drive in from the suburbs. Downtown is just not a very relevant place in KC for jobs and now after covid, it may never be again. Look at places like Amsterdam or Zurich or Melbourne where trams move the vast majority of people in vibrant center cities. Get the city fixed first then think about rail to the suburbs.

It's a nice dream map though if KC were to ever build LRT to compliment a center city transit system.

[GRID]

The biggest question is not the routes, its the funding. The funding will determine the routes.
Anyways, if I could Sim City it, I'd largely reconstruct some of the old SC routes but leave out others (like Excelsior).

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

The local funding aspect is the reason why this reaches as many parts of the metro as possible, to ensure a regional vote wouldn’t be DOA

What I'm saying is the local area will never be able to fund rail to the speedway or KCI without a ton of federal money and KC is not getting any federal money for routes 20 miles through such low populated areas. LRT to the speedway from Downtown would be like 3 billion dollar or more. Same with LRT to KCI. The numbers just are not there. They might be there in Jackson or Johnson. Even those will likely struggle to get federal funding with so much competition out there.

[DaveKCMO]

Get ready for street-running light rail because there aren't many options for dedicated ROW, and if you use freeway medians you squander the TOD potential. Street-running is slower over long distances.

[alejandro46]

The biggest question is not the routes, its the funding. The funding will determine the routes.
Anyways, if I could Sim City it, I'd largely reconstruct some of the old SC routes but leave out others (like Excelsior).

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

The local funding aspect is the reason why this reaches as many parts of the metro as possible, to ensure a regional vote wouldn’t be DOA

What I'm saying is the local area will never be able to fund rail to the speedway or KCI without a ton of federal money and KC is not getting any federal money for routes 20 miles through such low populated areas. LRT to the speedway from Downtown would be like 3 billion dollar or more. Same with LRT to KCI. The numbers just are not there. They might be there in Jackson or Johnson. Even those will likely struggle to get federal funding with so much competition out there.

Generally I agree, I think Truman Sports Complex and some kind of limited Rock Island RR Expansion may be the more feasible route of all since so much of the ROW is already owned and it's located in one county and one jurisdiction

Our city is too sprawled out and political power is divided into multiple jurisdictions.

Whats in the NextRail plan is a good start. Build BRT transit where we can afford that as well.

[GRID]

The local funding aspect is the reason why this reaches as many parts of the metro as possible, to ensure a regional vote wouldn’t be DOA

What I'm saying is the local area will never be able to fund rail to the speedway or KCI without a ton of federal money and KC is not getting any federal money for routes 20 miles through such low populated areas. LRT to the speedway from Downtown would be like 3 billion dollar or more. Same with LRT to KCI. The numbers just are not there. They might be there in Jackson or Johnson. Even those will likely struggle to get federal funding with so much competition out there.

Generally I agree, I think Truman Sports Complex and some kind of limited Rock Island RR Expansion may be the more feasible route of all since so much of the ROW is already owned and it's located in one county and one jurisdiction

Our city is too sprawled out and political power is divided into multiple jurisdictions.

Whats in the NextRail plan is a good start. Build BRT transit where we can afford that as well.

I agree. That's why keeping it within one county makes the most sense. I would do a county vote to build an additional streetcar line on Troost and something on the Rock Island RR ROW that also is an east west route through the east side into the city. I honestly think that would pass unless people in Lees Summit put up a fight to keep transit out of that corridor.

[TheUrbanRoo]

It's a fine design. The problem is that all the ends of those lines (Legends, Lee's Summit, Olathe, Belton, etc) their whole goal is to literally keep you from going downtown. And they SURE don't want people from downtown coming out to them. There is only one single way to get this type of plan to materialize: the urban core has to start winning, and winning big! Major corporate relocations to the city have to exclusively be choosing DT, when talking about the best schools in the metro DT has to get conversation, crime has to nosedive, stadiums only want to be DT, etc. Otherwise, Lee's Summit is going to try and build themselves an island you never have to leave. Same for Overland Park and the Northland. Quit trying to connect to people that don't want to connect to us. Compete at all levels.

+1

My one comment would be that I like the urban streetcar network right now because it's making urban core be the only place with transit, and putting pressure on people/business to go there so it's getting built out.

[normalthings]

Who’s ready for the 7,318th (or is it 19th) rendition of a very rough approximation of a possible master plan and buildout for an LRT, or more light Metro system for the Kansas City metro area. Our team at UrbanLab KC is looking to get some feedback from the more interested community first to refine the plan.

There isn’t a super precise routing on this, so use your imagination. Our intention is to keep the stops more so areas/neighborhoods/Suburban Downtowns so people get a general sense of the system.

Be sure to let me know what y’all think, what you’d like to see change, and what you’d want to maintain. We hope to try and use this to get a conversation going at a higher level here, and get a regional movement going.

1.WSP Park area (US/CC) is a great hub for lines. I would take Grand north from that hub and hop over to Troost for southern runs.

2. Consider connecting JoCo into the Plaza directly.

3. It looks like you skip around South KC?

City Hall holds numerous previous transit studies. You can set up a time to view them.

The far suburbs clearly are not going to be getting LRT or anything similar soon. I think to be taken seriously, showing those far tips as future extensions will be useful.

[normalthings]

What I'm saying is the local area will never be able to fund rail to the speedway or KCI without a ton of federal money and KC is not getting any federal money for routes 20 miles through such low populated areas. LRT to the speedway from Downtown would be like 3 billion dollar or more. Same with LRT to KCI. The numbers just are not there. They might be there in Jackson or Johnson. Even those will likely struggle to get federal funding with so much competition out there.

Generally I agree, I think Truman Sports Complex and some kind of limited Rock Island RR Expansion may be the more feasible route of all since so much of the ROW is already owned and it's located in one county and one jurisdiction

Our city is too sprawled out and political power is divided into multiple jurisdictions.

Whats in the NextRail plan is a good start. Build BRT transit where we can afford that as well.

I agree. That's why keeping it within one county makes the most sense. I would do a county vote to build an additional streetcar line on Troost and something on the Rock Island RR ROW that also is an east west route through the east side into the city. I honestly think that would pass unless people in Lees Summit put up a fight to keep transit out of that corridor.

I want more than a single county vote but I think they do need to be independent. If Jackson says yes, plug in Jackson. if JoCo says yes, plug in JoCo, etc.

[shinatoo]

After 30 years of hoping for this, I have to agree that it's a waste of time at this point. There is nothing preventing you from living in the urban core, or in the suburbs. It doesn't cost that much more to live anywhere between downtown and Waldo than it does anywhere else, so "we" (urban residents) don't want to pay to encourage people to move further out. And there isn't enough traffic to justify paying for it if you live in the suburbs. None of these plans will reduce travel time for anyone. So "they" (suburban residents) don't want to pay for it either. And none of it has enough impact to attract federal funding.

We also don't have a jobs center downtown that justifies it (and drives it). Or a tourist culture that needs it.

I would rather see a laser focus on getting streetcar and bus service to an acceptable level in the core. All of our efforts should be on making the core a desirable place to live/work/play. If that happens then we might have the density to start considering light rail.

At this point, these conversations are all academic.

[normalthings]

I don't know how much more you can build out in the core without a broader net to pay for it. There are also some destinations outside the core worth exploring: Overland Park, TSC/Raytown, Bannister, NKC.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

I don't know how much more you can build out in the core without a broader net to pay for it. There are also some destinations outside the core worth exploring: Overland Park, TSC/Raytown, Bannister, NKC.

The underlayer of a fully built out streetcar network is also something we’d like to discuss with local elected officials. Namely Mike Kelly on the JOCO commissioners, he’s pro SC extensions into JOCO, and it might help to get a bigger pot to build out with

[FlippantCitizen]

Have to agree with the sentiments of BFA, GRID, Alejandro and others. Not sure KC needs this kind of network or rather that the ridership would be enough to justify the enormous expense, especially when the core bus and tram network it would connect into is just so abysmal.

I like the idea of a Jackson County only vote for a E/W dedicated lane center running line out to TSC and continue to Lee summit via Rock Island. Something that might be street running on certain segments but has clear priority, true BRT or street running LRT high frequency line on Independence Ave all the way to DT Independence. And maybe a Trolley Track Trail extension to Waldo.

One county, a handful of municipalities. That seems like a realistic place to get started. And then run the GD buses more frequently, driver shortage or not, the state of things is embarrassing and without them a regional system is next to useless.

[GRID]

Generally I agree, I think Truman Sports Complex and some kind of limited Rock Island RR Expansion may be the more feasible route of all since so much of the ROW is already owned and it's located in one county and one jurisdiction

Our city is too sprawled out and political power is divided into multiple jurisdictions.

Whats in the NextRail plan is a good start. Build BRT transit where we can afford that as well.

I agree. That's why keeping it within one county makes the most sense. I would do a county vote to build an additional streetcar line on Troost and something on the Rock Island RR ROW that also is an east west route through the east side into the city. I honestly think that would pass unless people in Lees Summit put up a fight to keep transit out of that corridor.

I want more than a single county vote but I think they do need to be independent. If Jackson says yes, plug in Jackson. if JoCo says yes, plug in JoCo, etc.

Yeah you could do that. But nobody is going to want "their" tax money crossing county and especially state lines.

So WyCo with a population of 160k is simply not going to even be able to vote on LRT to the speedway. They would be getting better buses and maybe they would go for that. Then again, if all counties did pass a tax, it opens up options to possibly fund something like LRT to KCI which would need the entire metro to fund it vs 100k Platte County and the entire metro might just do it. You never know since everybody thinks rail should go to KCI.

But I have been dreaming maps of transit in KC since I was in high school in the 80's and I actually think the area was further along in the process back then than it is now. I actually worked on the heavy commuter rail project to Olathe and the KCMO backed dual line LRT proposal.

Metro KC has basically given up on those type of projects and they are not even on the long range radar anymore. It will be 20+ years before they even break ground on something along the only corridor that's been looked at in the last 20 years, Rock Island. Building a LRT from scratch in its own ROW or even along streets now is a total pipe dream.

And maybe that's a good thing because KC needs urban transit WAY more than regional trains. They just need to figure out a way to fund something that will primarily benefit the center city when most of KCMO tax payers don't live in the center city.

[normalthings]

Missouri passed something similar to what you are saying. It allows for the Mo side counties to approve a transit tax AND has a provision for certain metrics across state lines to reduce the sendinf my money away arguement

[alejandro46]

I do appreciate the initiative. What I think a good goal would be to coordinate future road and infrastructure improvements with "dedicated transit corridors." For example, if the metro could map out a system where we say "this is the right spot for XYZ transit line" if funding is available. We should zone and develop the area with this intention to run high frequency transit down the road, ensure that the infrastructure and planning is there and close to shovel ready if a tax or federal grant is awarded.

[TheUrbanRoo]

If we're gonna spend money like this I'd rather put it into our universities

[rxlexi]

I appreciate the amount of thought going into planning like this, but count me among the group that believe KC should focus transit planning and funding primarily on the urban core. We don't need a lot of additional rail, we're hitting the low hanging fruit with the initial streetcar line + plaza extension.

An E/W line, or NKC, or maybe spur to Waldo would be awesome but that's realistically where I'd draw the line about "needing" additional rail. It's just so cost and time intensive, and if we are playing our cards right with the streetcar and a robust bus network we will have a very usable, walkable urban core transit system within the part of the city that could really benefit from such a network.

If anything the bus network needs major help. Big frequency increases, regular express routes to MCI and sports complex. For a fraction of the cost of Denver-style LRT in highway lanes I would think we could layer a pretty effective bus (maybe fancy electric or BRT style buses to up the wow factor) system over the existing or lightly-expanded streetcar spine and make a decent urban core based system that would enable the type of walkability we want in the area that it would realistically occur.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

I appreciate the amount of thought going into planning like this, but count me among the group that believe KC should focus transit planning and funding primarily on the urban core. We don't need a lot of additional rail, we're hitting the low hanging fruit with the initial streetcar line + plaza extension.

An E/W line, or NKC, or maybe spur to Waldo would be awesome but that's realistically where I'd draw the line about "needing" additional rail. It's just so cost and time intensive, and if we are playing our cards right with the streetcar and a robust bus network we will have a very usable, walkable urban core transit system within the part of the city that could really benefit from such a network.

If anything the bus network needs major help. Big frequency increases, regular express routes to MCI and sports complex. For a fraction of the cost of Denver-style LRT in highway lanes I would think we could layer a pretty effective bus (maybe fancy electric or BRT style buses to up the wow factor) system over the existing or lightly-expanded streetcar spine and make a decent urban core based system that would enable the type of walkability we want in the area that it would realistically occur.

Absolutely agreed. We didn’t intend for this to be a standalone plan by any means, we’re working on underlay maps for a master plan full buildout of both Streetcar and Max lines to compliment the system. All of these services fulfill a separate purpose, and we don’t intend to try to shoehorn one in place of another