Page 60 of 143
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:00 pm
by hgascoigne
earthling wrote:Speaking of which, KC drivers are terrible at preventing gridlock at intersections by pulling into intersections knowing many cars tied up in front of them. I've seen some cities with signs at some problem intersections that say '$300 ticket for causing gridlock' that I'd like to see KC adapt. The signs should be a deterrent even if not often enforced.
Austin has large signs at most intersections downtown that say "Don't block the box." It's sad that it isn't just common sense.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:58 pm
by DaveKCMO
earthling wrote:Taking away the traffic lights at Westport/Penn might cause backups/gridlock at Westport/Broadway. Guess we'll find out pretty soon. Maybe the City should keep those lights as-is flashing red in both directions for several months to determine the impact. And if OK, then remove for flashing stop signs.
Speaking of which, KC drivers are terrible at preventing gridlock at intersections by pulling into intersections knowing many cars tied up in front of them. I've seen some cities with signs at some problem intersections that say '$300 ticket for causing gridlock' that I'd like to see KC adapt. The signs should be a deterrent even if not often enforced.
if you read the press release, it says they'll keep the flashing red signals for a year.
The traffic signals will be set to flash red in all directions starting Oct. 28, 2016. This allows staff to monitor the impact of the planned changes. Should the yearlong test period run smoothly, the signals will be removed.
even if it causes a backup -- which it probably will not outside of the peak of rush hour -- drivers won't be stopped as long in any direction. the main benefit and reason for the change is slower traffic on westport road, which will be safer for pedestrians and bicyclists.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:02 pm
by pash
.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:41 am
by WSPanic
I guess I don't see the problem with turn lanes. Saying they "serve little purpose" is not evidence they're not needed. Nor is it very accurate. They serve a very specific purpose. I honestly don't care, but I haven't seen any issues with turn lanes at stop signs.
And the city is not saying they're doing this to slow traffic, per the release. They're doing it to better accommodate pedestrian traffic. I'm on foot in that area much more than I'm in a car, so I'm hopeful this will be an improvement. The light at Westport/Penn is silly and takes entirely too long if you just want to cross Westport Road.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:04 am
by pash
.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:59 am
by WSPanic
pash wrote:Tell me, WSPanic, what very specific purpose do you believe a left-turn lane serves at an intersection controlled by all-way stop signs?
It's for turning.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:27 pm
by flyingember
WSPanic wrote:pash wrote:Tell me, WSPanic, what very specific purpose do you believe a left-turn lane serves at an intersection controlled by all-way stop signs?
It's for turning.
Yes, and being for turning could mean hitting more pedestrians
In a ped heavy environment obviously the less cars the easier it is to pay attention to the environment.
It also reduces the number of possible movements so cars can get through quicker.
If I get to the front with three cars there I can quickly tell if I have to wait for all three or not. Like if I'm making a right and the car to my left is also making a right and the car across from me is going straight or making a right I don't need to wait. But it's less clear when I can go if there's two cars in front of me and two cars to my right. (you can't assume someone is turning if they're in the left turn lane until they start moving) Having dedicated left turn lanes helps, but not enough to reduce the additional complexity back to not having the lane
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:57 pm
by WSPanic
I guess I don't view the extra lane as adding that much difficulty to the situation.
Although, anyone who can't comprehend an intersection with turn lanes probably shouldn't be allowed to travel west towards SW Trafficway/Westport Road. They'll never survive that one.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:27 pm
by chaglang
Can we all pause to acknowledge how bizarre it is that KCMO is allowing a bunch of amateurs to do this with their own equipment?
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:04 pm
by pash
.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:32 pm
by smh
chaglang wrote:Can we all pause to acknowledge how bizarre it is that KCMO is allowing a bunch of amateurs to do this with their own equipment?
They are at dangerous risk of setting a precedent.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:47 pm
by WSPanic
pash wrote:WSPanic wrote:pash wrote:Tell me, WSPanic, what very specific purpose do you believe a left-turn lane serves at an intersection controlled by all-way stop signs?
It's for turning.
You may have noticed that when you pull up to an all-way stop, after you gain the right of way you may either go straight, turn right, or turn left, as you wish. Unlike at a stop light, there is never an unbroken sequence of oncoming vehicles that hold the right of way, so you do not have to wait for a break in traffic to turn left. Consequently, cars behind you do not have to wait any longer on you to move through the intersection when you are turning than when you are going straight; thus a left-turn lane, which provides space for left-turning cars to loiter, waiting to turn, without blocking the flow of traffic proceeding straight through an intersection controlled by a traffic light, lack their basic purpose at an intersection controlled by all-way stops.
Indeed, all a left-turn lane does in this situation is allow left-turning traffic to jump to the front of the queue to move through the intersection, when there is one. Their very presence widens the roadway to no other benefit (if re-ordering the stopping queue can be called a benefit), a detriment to pedestrians, and because they make it possible for two cars coming from the same direction to pull up to the stop sign at about the same time, left-turn lanes cause needless confusion among both drivers and pedestrians about who has the right of way.
In other words, left-turn lanes at an all-way stop offer no meaningful benefits whatsoever, but they do carry some minor (but noticeable) disadvantages. No one would design an all-way stop from scratch with left turn lanes, and the only reason they will remain present on Westport Road, if they do, is because they are a left-over element of the formerly signalized intersections there, vestigial reminders that the people who design the public spaces in this town rarely do it well.
OK?
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:05 pm
by pash
.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:27 pm
by kboish
smh wrote:chaglang wrote:Can we all pause to acknowledge how bizarre it is that KCMO is allowing a bunch of amateurs to do this with their own equipment?
They are at dangerous risk of setting a precedent.
What do you mean?
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:05 pm
by DaveKCMO
chaglang wrote:Can we all pause to acknowledge how bizarre it is that KCMO is allowing a bunch of amateurs to do this with their own equipment?
https://www.facebook.com/BetterBlockKc/
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:04 am
by chaglang
Yeah. It's the amateur, DIY spirit of BetterBlock, brought to permanent, painted road realignment. Hashtag innovate.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:59 am
by smh
kboish wrote:smh wrote:chaglang wrote:Can we all pause to acknowledge how bizarre it is that KCMO is allowing a bunch of amateurs to do this with their own equipment?
They are at dangerous risk of setting a precedent.
What do you mean?
That once this is complete people (me) are going to demand that we crowdsource this kind of stuff all the time.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:09 am
by kboish
I guess I am still missing something. I don't see where crowdsourcing or amateurs using their own equipment comes into play. Are we talking about the removal of the stoplight in westport?
And apologies in advance, i'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to figure it out.
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:25 am
by shinatoo
kboish wrote:I guess I am still missing something. I don't see where crowdsourcing or amateurs using their own equipment comes into play. Are we talking about the removal of the stoplight in westport?
And apologies in advance, i'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to figure it out.
Ditto
Re: Westport's fate post-P&L
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:38 am
by smh
It is my understanding, though I defer to chaglang, that the restriping work will be done by a volunteer group.