KCRag Forum

KC-wildcat started a post in the P&L District board asking if about the district's effect on the Plaza.  I figured that readers more inclined to read the "Midtown" board may have significant input.  Have those of you that live close or spend a lot of time there noticed significant decreases of patronage at the Plaza?

My wife and I spend a lot of time both downtown and at the Plaza and we have noticed subtle differences, but the Plaza still seems to be going as strong as ever.  Have any of you had different experiences?

I'm heading for re-Verse then The Capitol Grille tonight.  Let you know tomorrow.

the plaza can stem losses by encouraging:

- more local restaurant concepts
- more street closures (nichols road) on weekends
- more outdoor dining
- retrofitting green rooftops (including conversion of some top-level parking garage spaces)
- continue building out dead spaces (south side of hall's garage, spaces near garage entries, alleyways)
- allow pedicabs

the place still has a leg-up on shopping, but it's a bit precarious because of the move upscale.

DaveKCMO wrote: the plaza can stem losses by encouraging:

- more local restaurant concepts

Earth to Highwoods, can you read us, Highwoods?

P&L is what it is: a bunch of touristy chain crap that isn't really very good but has broad appeal. If the Plaza is going to try to compete with them at being that thing, the Plaza may very well lose. The counter to that is to attract new local concepts. The Plaza can easily compete / coexist with 39th and xroads in that regard.

actually, it seems that the "going out bars" on the plaza are largely local concepts - o'dowds, fooleries, granfalloon, etc. as well as places that are technically chains but don't really seem like it - kona, mi cocina, etc.  while the local influence on the plaza isn't what i would like it to be, there are more local places there than the p+l.  of course, for the type of demographic that likes blonde, angel's, etc., i don't think there is much of an advantage to being local - in fact, the opposite is probably the case. 

DaveKCMO wrote: the plaza can stem losses by encouraging:

- more local restaurant concepts
- more street closures (nichols road) on weekends
- more outdoor dining
- retrofitting green rooftops (including conversion of some top-level parking garage spaces)
- continue building out dead spaces (south side of hall's garage, spaces near garage entries, alleyways)
- allow pedicabs

the place still has a leg-up on shopping, but it's a bit precarious because of the move *back* upscale.

Fixed.

We used to have all sorts of upperscale clothing and the sort that lost ground to restaurants and run of the mill mass market clothing companies.

A list of some former Plaza residents...

Gucci, Tiffany (now back), Gerhardt Furs, Crabtree and Evelyn, Ilten Brass, Luckypenny, Bennet Schneider...

There is certainly going to be a hit on the Plaza, at least temporarily because P&L is the hot new place to go. But I don't think anyone can say with much certainty what the long term effects will be.

bring back the plaza bowl!

plaza = shopping.  Bars succeeded due to no other option.  The existing bars will continue to do well but the CCP was never meant to be an entertainment district.

It's all about the retail.  I really wonder if all of the P&L retail will come to fruition.  Hello, bookstore???

The Plaza could secure its position by bringing in more retail that won't be Downtown anytime soon.  Bringing back a good sporting goods store would be a start.  And then a furniture store that caters to the urban demographic.  If they can snag a second Crate & Barrel that would be killer, but there are other options like CB2 or Room & Board.

Then work with the city and DST to create a more pedestrian-friendly connection to the South Plaza where there are already neighborhood services like a pharmacy and post office.

dangerboy wrote: Then work with the city and DST to create a more pedestrian-friendly connection to the South Plaza where there are already neighborhood services like a pharmacy and post office.

...and westport! most KC residents wouldn't think (or know how) to walk between the two. it's only 3 blocks!

DaveKCMO wrote: ...and westport! most KC residents wouldn't think (or know how) to walk between the two. it's only 3 blocks!

That is where some pedestrian wayfinding would be helpful.  A big sign at 47th and Broadway/Wornall saying "Westport 3 blocks this way"

dangerboy wrote: That is where some pedestrian wayfinding would be helpful.  A big sign at 47th and Broadway/Wornall saying "Westport 3 blocks this way"

And escalators to help the fatties up the hill.

I kinda hope that P&L does impact the Plaza a bit, enough for Highwoods to take notice and make some changes.  Competition is good.  Probably won't happen though once the newness of P&L wears a bit.  Plaza is just too different.  When suburban people have outatown visitors, they'll probably hit both.  Plaza for shopping, the architectural uniqueness... P&L for entertainment and nitelife. 

I've said in the Plaza thread that I'd like to see Highwoods bring in more retail that serves the residents rather than tourists.  But they also need more retail that is unique to the metro as it has become too much of a generic mall for the most part.  The only generic retail they should have is what serves the residents... drug store, small grocery, dry cleaner, etc.

BTW, 47th/Wyandotte to Westport/Penn is about a 7 block walk.

I agree that CCP is primarily retail shopping, rather than an entertainment district such as P&L and Westport.  My fear is that there are limited entertainment & shopping dollars available (and in a declining economy, less so).  Therefore, discretionary income will be distributed among an increasing number of developments (Town Center Plaza catering to a similar demographic as CCP).  I think for CCP to thrive, Highwoods has to refine its marketing niche.

bahua wrote: And escalators to help the fatties up the hill.

tee hee....

I made it to re-Verse about 5 last night.  There were about 6 people in the bar area and no one in the dining area.  That was really weird.  In talking with Jeff the bartender about the lack of people, we had to consider many reasons.  The approaching storm, the KU game later that night, the smoking ban, beside the P&L competition.  Before we left, at one time my wife and I were the only two people there.  Two couples came in about 7:00 when we left.  We walked over to The Capitol Grille for a drink, and that place was busy.  The bar area was full and the dining room seemed to be filling up.  We saw many people coming in as we were there.  Ricardo, the manager said that business did not seem to be hurt at all by the P&L.  We both agreed that the only competition from the P&L would be the Bristol.  No one else there has the quality of fun that the Capitol Grille has.  And in my opinion the Bristol doesn’t match the Grille.  I guess we will all see how it plays out. when it is all said and done Ithink the Plaza will do fine.  I hope we draw enough new people in for both locations to prosper.

cknab1 wrote: I made it to re-Verse about 5 last night.  There were about 6 people in the bar area and no one in the dining area.  That was really weird.  In talking with Jeff the bartender about the lack of people, we had to consider many reasons.  The approaching storm, the KU game later that night, the smoking ban, beside the P&L competition. 

Well, the storm and KU game on a Monday night assuredly would have had a negative effect, but these factors don't explain why the Plaza was a ghost town last Friday night, and the weekend before that.  IMO, the lack of weekend business is in direct correlation to the success of the P&L. 

Also, the smoking ban is not in effect yet.  The current ordinance only prohibits smoking before 9pm.   

"Therefore, discretionary income will be distributed among an increasing number of developments (Town Center Plaza catering to a similar demographic as CCP).  I think for CCP to thrive, Highwoods has to refine its marketing niche."

I agree that the Plaza and Town Center have a lot of retailers that overlap, so the Plaza should pull in some even more exclusive retailors (although it has some that are no where else in KC).  However, the plaza has the Country Club District and Ward Parkway set to shop there while TCP has the Joco set shopping there.  I know people from the plaza area sometimes go out to the suburbs to shop, but I bet way more suburbanites come down to the Plaza to shop.  Once again, it's just about the atmosphere of the Plaza and how nice it is to stroll as opposed to TCP's car-centric design.

i don't think the retail at the plaza will suffer much, just the restaurants/clubs/theaters.