$177M to renovate Kauffman?

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:41 am

Why in the hell are we still talking about dumping almost $200M into renovations. Look around, for just a little more cash, we can build a new stadium downtown.....I love Kauffman and would love to just airlift it downtown but if we're going to spend this much money, why not just build a new stadium.....it's like would you fix up a car for $10,000 when you can buy a new one for $20,000?

KC0KEK · Post by **KC0KEK** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:26 am

My guess is that the reasons include:

a) Cost and availability of land downtown. If backers of a new stadium say it will cost about $200M, does that include the land? Or just the stadium itself?

b) Cost of upgrading infrastructure, such as roads. Again, if a new stadium costs $200M, does that include chipping in for expanded roads in the area so fans can get in and out quickly? Some states and cities that have resisted public funding for new stadiums have footed the bill for infrastructure improvements. What are MO's and KCMO's positions on who pays for infrastructure?

c) Uncertainty about what happens to the K. Does it just sit empty at a major entrance to the city? If so, how will the city justify a couple million a year just for upkeep? If not, who would be a replacement tenant? Would a minor league baseball team be interested if they can fill less than half of the seats, a la the Wizards in Arrowhead or the Blades in Kemper? Or would they prefer a smaller park, like Community America Ballpark?

I'm sure there are issues, but those are the ones that jump to mind.

KC0KEK · Post by **KC0KEK** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:32 am

By the way, does anybody know if there's still a railroad right-of-way behind the Sports Complex? I vaguely recall a line back there, but I think that it was abandoned. At any rate, it KC ever got commuter rail, the Sports Complex lots could double as a park-and-ride lot and as a station for taking the train to the game.

StL_Dan · Post by **StL_Dan** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:52 am

KC0KEK wrote:My guess is that the reasons include:

a) Cost and availability of land downtown. If backers of a new stadium say it will cost about $200M, does that include the land? Or just the stadium itself?

Probably just the stadium ittself if I had to guess.

KC0KEK wrote:b) Cost of upgrading infrastructure, such as roads. Again, if a new stadium costs $200M, does that include chipping in for expanded roads in the area so fans can get in and out quickly? Some states and cities that have resisted public funding for new stadiums have footed the bill for infrastructure improvements. What are MO's and KCMO's positions on who pays for infrastructure?

This is the problem with KC.....sometimes they just need to FIND A WAY to make it happen instead of overanalyzing it to death.

KC0KEK wrote:c) Uncertainty about what happens to the K. Does it just sit empty at a major entrance to the city? If so, how will the city justify a couple million a year just for upkeep? If not, who would be a replacement tenant? Would a minor league baseball team be interested if they can fill less than half of the seats, a la the Wizards in Arrowhead or the Blades in Kemper? Or would they prefer a smaller park, like Community America Ballpark?

Tear it down and use the additional space for Chiefs' parking. Tailgating is a permanent fixture on the landscape of KC culture. Tear down the K and erect a monument to "the KC tailgater" and/or provide more parking for others that wish to enjoy the experience and work a deal to get a pctg kickback from the Chiefs on those parking revenues to offset costs associated with demolition of the K.

Bye bye sterile concrete slab stadium and say hello to a sweeeeet arse downtown venue with that homey KC feeling.

I'm sure there are issues, but those are the ones that jump to mind.[/quote]

KC0KEK · Post by **KC0KEK** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:09 pm

StL_Dan wrote:Tear it down and use the additional space for Chiefs' parking. Tailgating is a permanent fixture on the landscape of KC culture. Tear down the K and erect a monument to "the KC tailgater" and/or provide more parking for others that wish to enjoy the experience and work a deal to get a pctg kickback from the Chiefs on those parking revenues to offset costs associated with demolition of the K.

I go to Royals games but have never been to a Chiefs game. What's the parking like? Is it really that tight?

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:40 pm

KC0KEK wrote:
StL_Dan wrote:Tear it down and use the additional space for Chiefs' parking. Tailgating is a permanent fixture on the landscape of KC culture. Tear down the K and erect a monument to "the KC tailgater" and/or provide more parking for others that wish to enjoy the experience and work a deal to get a pctg kickback from the Chiefs on those parking revenues to offset costs associated with demolition of the K.
I go to Royals games but have never been to a Chiefs game. What's the parking like? Is it really that tight?

About 25,000 cars and about 19,000 spaces.

If the metro cuts the Chiefs Express it will get even worse. As many as 6000 ride the metro I believe.

KCN · Post by **KCN** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:13 pm

I totally agree, KC. BUILD A NEW ONE DOWNTOWN.

StL_Dan · Post by **StL_Dan** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:24 pm

KC0KEK wrote:
StL_Dan wrote:Tear it down and use the additional space for Chiefs' parking. Tailgating is a permanent fixture on the landscape of KC culture. Tear down the K and erect a monument to "the KC tailgater" and/or provide more parking for others that wish to enjoy the experience and work a deal to get a pctg kickback from the Chiefs on those parking revenues to offset costs associated with demolition of the K.
I go to Royals games but have never been to a Chiefs game. What's the parking like? Is it really that tight?

YES. With the exception of the 60 degree angled hills primarily on the north end of the lot, all green space is used for parking cuz the lot is jammed. It's more cool than a nuisance of course.....part of the appeal of game day...the atmosphere it helps create is really cool.

Post by **dangerboy** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:12 pm

Regarding parking and roads, Downtown wouldn't need much of an upgrade to accomodate baseball crowds. A 45,000 seat stadium would draw fewer people than the 90,000 that come into the loop to work every day. Traffic should slightly less than they typical rush hour. In fact, many more people probably carpool to games than to work.

The 40,000 parking spaces within the loop would easily handle the demands of a stadium. The only problem would be the few weekday afternoon games when parking is already full, but then there are ample park-and-ride locations throughoutt the suburbs.

KC0KEK · Post by **KC0KEK** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:57 pm

What are the likeliest locations for a downtown stadium (or arena), and how many of those 40,000 spaces are within a few blocks of that site? If it's not enough to accommodate whatever the building holds, then you'd have to factor in the cost of a new garage. After all, not many people will walk from a parking space over by, say, Vista Del Rio to a stadium/arena by Bartle.

One option is to have game-day buses within the loop that transport you to and from far-flung lots. Or maybe you could get owners of office and residential buildings near the arena/stadium to go in on a new garage in exchange for having some of the spaces reserved for their tenants.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:02 pm

We had a friend from Seattle and one from Dallas visit Kauffman Stadium, they loved it! I don't see anything horribly wrong with Kauffman Stadium (except location), and no reason to destroy it for a new stadium downtown.

I jus' think we need to build that area up near the Sports Complex w/ retail, condo-type housing, landscaping and a Sports Village with a sports bar & grill, a sports museum, a sports arcade, sports retail, walk-of-stars and bronze KC sports figures, a small lake with a big jumbo-tron showing sports highlights, a center-piece hotel accomodating both visiting teams and sports fans....and maybe even that damn Bass Pro Shops.

Save downtown for an arena and possibly a future NBA or NHL team.

Post by **dangerboy** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:36 pm

QueSi2Opie wrote:I jus' think we need to build that area up near the Sports Complex

Agreed. If the ballpark stays at the Truman Sports Complex (which is the most likey scenario), then we absolutely have to develop the surrounding area. Village West has shown us the opportunity that we have been missing for the past 30 years, which is using sports facilities as a catalyst for more development.

phxcat · Post by **phxcat** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 7:23 pm

They are building a compex in Glendale for the Cardinals and the Coyotes. It is not on two highways, but out on one (the 101) and is on a wide open area, like the sports complex. The plan in Glendale is to fill it up with exactly what you recomend. It will be intersting to see how that goes. In the meantime, I think that Truman has too much of a feel of a limited access type of area. They would have to restructure the streets to make it more accessible, and do away with the parking costs. Or maybe turn the parking itno more of an urban lot type thing- with several smaller lots that you pay for when you pull into. Thought would have to go into making that succeed.

Although, in a perfect world, the stadium would be downtown, there is something to be said for not spending the money to replace a perfectly good stadium.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 12:48 am

I have come to accept that we will not be building a new downtown stadium. I think in KC something like that could easily end up easily costing 400 million plus. Most cities have available land where their old stadium sat or blocks of vacant buildings to tear down, KC no longer has neither. I don't think parking would be much of an issue as there is plenty of parking Downtown, Crown Center and between, plus all the new structures that will go up in the next few years. Oh and yea, the walk from the fed courthouse to truman road is nothing, that's a short walk in most cities. (god KC walk a little).

But Kauffman Stadium is just too nice and could really shine if remodeled correctly. The new stadiums are nice, but they are like new homes, you can tell they are built cheaper and a lot of corners are cut to build them, even the seats have about half the leg room as Kauffman.

I am for a new Downtown stadium as much as anybody. Bringing another 2 million people Downtown every year and showing off our city to the rest of the country would make a half billion dollar investment worth it to me, but it's just not going to happen.

And I don't see Jackson County doing what Wyandotte did, they won't get help from the state or MoDot like KCK and the rough terrain around the stadium is far more difficult to develop than that the speedway area especially without a lot of infrastructure improvements. Plus retail competion in Jackson County is fierce where KCK had no retail.

I'm sure it could be done, but I don't have much faith in it happening.

KC is still lacking the leadership to take on such projects.

Mizzou05 · Post by **Mizzou05** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:51 pm

Did you all watch the KC-Green Bay game. Damn that staduim looks good. It defenately out ranks Arrowhead i am sorry.Arrowhead is a great place to watch a game but it is getting old and it is beginning to show its age, along with Kauffman. What is it with this city, why do we always settle for less? For god sake people have some pride in what you have. Just because you have a leak doesnt mean you are going to replace every pipe in the house. What we have at the Sports Complex is one of a kind. I always see on here people asking how we can make ourselfs different from other cities. The Sports Complex is one of the things that makes us different. We need to take care of what we got and renovate the Sports Complex, but I do agree retail needs to come and fast.

Post by **dangerboy** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:00 am

I wish KCMO and Jackson Co. would team up to encourage the Bass Pro Shop to the Sports Complex area. I would be a great fit, and encourage more development, as well as propping up east KC, Independence, and Raytown. We also need some local KC businesses there for exposure to the visitors. Perhaps a locally-owned version of Village West, with things like a Gates, Tanners, 54th Street Grill, Golden Ox, Granfalloon, etc. Anything but the Denny's that we have there now.

I think we could get local and state support if we lobby hard for it. The terrain is challenging, but not prohibitive. Just a few miles to the east Independence was able to shave off several feet of limestone bluffs to build the Eastland development, and it was redevelopment of the surrounding neighborhood that was key for St. Louis getting state support for the Cardinals' new stadium.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:13 pm

do we really want more developments like Village west? come on guys....that's nothing but sprawl.....less developments like Village west are what I'm after....more urban developments.

Parking would be fine but having the BRT line or special shuttle helping to connect garages would be a benefit.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:31 pm

KC wrote:do we really want more developments like Village west? come on guys....that's nothing but sprawl.....less developments like Village west are what I'm after....more urban developments.

Parking would be fine but having the BRT line or special shuttle helping to connect garages would be a benefit.

Sprawl would be puttin' another Village West in Grain Valley. The area around Truman Sports Complex in East KC needs to improve drastically.

Post by **dangerboy** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:35 pm

KC wrote:do we really want more developments like Village west? come on guys....that's nothing but sprawl.....less developments like Village west are what I'm after....more urban developments.

Parking would be fine but having the BRT line or special shuttle helping to connect garages would be a benefit.

Sprawl? This would be infill, a productive use for an underutilized area near the city center. This location definitely qualifies as an urban development. The layout doesn't have to be a mega strip mall like Village West, it could be pedestrian oriented new-urbanist, whatever.

Post by **bahua** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:51 am

I think the most likely spot for a ballpark downtown wouldn't actually be downtown, but just south of it, where the Arena is mistakenly supposed to be located. As for parking, a new multilevel(10 or 20) deck could accomodate a couple thousand cars, and shuttles could easily be run from parking areas downtown. As for daytime games, most of the people who go to those are already downtown, and could just hop on one of the shuttles to the stadium from work.

Everyone else could take the bus. If they moved the ballpark downtown, I would crap my pants with joy.