KCRag Forum

Seriously, is it just time for KC to drop back down to a minor league / AAA type city? Reading the comments about the stadiums, how much it cost to park or go to games at the current complex (some of cheapest in pro sports), how scared people are of even going downtown if that were ever to happen, how KC would have to go so damn cheap if they were to build a new stadium and be practically building a minor league stadium anyway. The Royals can't even sell out home openers anymore, they barely drew the average MLB attendance when they in the the playoffs and attendance fell off like a rock right after winning the WS. I'm not sure KC is even a MLB town anymore other than showing up for a free parade.

KC is going to have to do something with Kauffman. Chances are high that if they don't build a stadium downtown, that a new stadium will STILL BE NEEDED regardless if it's downtown or not. Spending another 500 million on Kauffman to get through another 10-15 years is really a pretty bad idea. You are talking about something that will be home to the Royals for decades. Long after most of these fans (who don't go to games now) are gone. Even if you stay at the TSC, a new stadium is probably the best long term investment.

Does KC want to be a major league pro team market or not? If so, the community is going to have to spend money on the stadiums. Considering KC will likely drop out of the top 30 markets in the coming years, I'm not sure the city has the advantage of playing "hardball" with stadiums issues. The city will just end up losing the Royals all together to other larger, more viable MLB markets.

I guess then the city can have its 20,000 seat stadium somewhere with lots of free parking for a AAA team.

I really hope things are not as bad as what I see online and on social media. KC people act like they are all from podunk small towns when it comes to topics on stadiums, downtown etc. People STILL hate the idea of replacing KCI's terminal. WTF? When is KC "culturally" going to start acting more like a major metropolitan area?

The team has nothing to lose. The Royals just need to do what THEY think is best for them and if that means moving downtown then they should just say that's what they are doing. The team has terrible attendance. They need new blood, new fans. They have nothing to lose by pissing off people that only care about parking lots. Maybe a downtown stadium will do that for them. I don't know.

I honestly think that if the Royals don’t get a DT stadium done, SKC will make the move there. They sell out every game. Soccer is becoming a major sport on pace with MLB and NLF. And they will need a larger stadium than Sporting Park in the next decade. They also seem to have a demographic that matches DT. I think KC residents would vote for it too because we would be ‘stealing’ a sport from KS.

GRID wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:31 pm The Royals can't even sell out home openers anymore, they barely drew the average MLB attendance when they in the the playoffs and attendance fell off like a rock right after winning the WS. I'm not sure KC is even a MLB town anymore other than showing up for a free parade.

Most MLB teams cannot sellout home openers. Mets can't sellout home openers and that's the largest market in sports.
Cardinals playoff tickets are easy to come by when they make NLCS. Braves would never sellout playoff games when they were dominant in the 90s. The all-star games are even having trouble selling out.
I would put money down that the future of MLB stadiums are in the 25-35k range and think the Royals are just ahead of the curve.

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:29 pm I honestly think that if the Royals don’t get a DT stadium done, SKC will make the move there. They sell out every game. Soccer is becoming a major sport on pace with MLB and NLF. And they will need a larger stadium than Sporting Park in the next decade. They also seem to have a demographic that matches DT. I think KC residents would vote for it too because we would be ‘stealing’ a sport from KS.

Soccer has always made the most sense to me. Even a bigger soccer stadium would be smaller than MLB or NFL. Yet soccer is the right size to host a lot of non-soccer events like outdoor concerts and festivals. Soccer is also more of a year-round event with a longer season and a sizable number of non-MLS games.


I worry that the finances won't work for downtown soccer though. With STAR Bonds and everything else that SPKC received, they don't really make money. Pro-soccer just doesn't pay the bills yet - it is a break-even sport. SPKC makes money primarily by hosting Cerner events (and to a much lesser degree others) at the stadium. No Cerner Office downtown means no Cerner event revenue stream.

Some of you over index way too much based on what you read here or online comments. Vocal minorites are going to vocal minority.

The plans are coming together for a fairly normal ballpark in the east village. There are smart people involved. KC has no shortage of good sports architects and they are familiar with Kansas City and the flagship elements the ballpark will demand.

The two main issues will be the public/private financing and making sure it's part of a neighborhood and not an island surrounded by surface lots. Not the size or price of concessions.

I do think there is space to make more mixed use stadiums. You can do basics like ground floor, transparent Hof/museum, team store, bar, event space. Apartments should be part, at least as a bigger plan. That area needs people living there.

There will be time to discuss all that.

I wonder if local architects hold certain design ideas back for their local team. “I have this awesome idea. I’m going to keep this in my mind for a DT Royals Stadium.”

Given the amazing things being done with wood high-rise construction, how about a wood stadium? That would be a throwback into the future.

missingkc wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:07 pm Given the amazing things being done with wood high-rise construction, how about a wood stadium? That would be a throwback into the future.

That’s a great idea. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dezeen ... overs/amp/

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:41 pm Some of you over index way too much based on what you read here or online comments. Vocal minorites are going to vocal minority.

The plans are coming together for a fairly normal ballpark in the east village. There are smart people involved. KC has no shortage of good sports architects and they are familiar with Kansas City and the flagship elements the ballpark will demand.

The two main issues will be the public/private financing and making sure it's part of a neighborhood and not an island surrounded by surface lots. Not the size or price of concessions.

I do think there is space to make more mixed use stadiums. You can do basics like ground floor, transparent Hof/museum, team store, bar, event space. Apartments should be part, at least as a bigger plan. That area needs people living there.

There will be time to discuss all that.

God, I hope you are right, but it's depressing as hell reading the comments on every single online format there is (reddit, kc star, facebook, twitter, the local KC news channels etc). I mean it's like 95% of the people are not just against a downtown park, they get extremely worked up about even the idea. I guess time will tell, but unless this is going to happen without a public vote, I don't see it happening.

GRID wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:54 pm

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:41 pm Some of you over index way too much based on what you read here or online comments. Vocal minorites are going to vocal minority.

The plans are coming together for a fairly normal ballpark in the east village. There are smart people involved. KC has no shortage of good sports architects and they are familiar with Kansas City and the flagship elements the ballpark will demand.

The two main issues will be the public/private financing and making sure it's part of a neighborhood and not an island surrounded by surface lots. Not the size or price of concessions.

I do think there is space to make more mixed use stadiums. You can do basics like ground floor, transparent Hof/museum, team store, bar, event space. Apartments should be part, at least as a bigger plan. That area needs people living there.

There will be time to discuss all that.

God, I hope you are right, but it's depressing as hell reading the comments on every single online format there is (reddit, kc star, facebook, twitter, the local KC news channels etc). I mean it's like 95% of the people are not just against a downtown park, they get extremely worked up about even the idea. I guess time will tell, but unless this is going to happen with a public vote, I don't see it happening.

Do you mean "without" a public vote? I see it challenged if left to a public vote because of the pretty well accepted idea in KC that Kaufman Stadium is not only adequate but preferable. That's not even attempting to counter the downtown traffic/parking arguments. Unlike the KCI terminal effort where eventually all but the most blind and obstinate diehards realized what a total disaster KCI really is, Kaufman Stadium is indeed still a viable and pleasant experience. Not sure how this would turn out for KC if public funding required a public vote. A lot of education would be necessary. That said, a lot of the naysayers are most likely Royal's fans in Johnson County who do not want to venture into downtown KC more than they already do even though for much of the county, it would be a much more convenient trip.

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:41 pm
I do think there is space to make more mixed use stadiums. You can do basics like ground floor, transparent Hof/museum, team store, bar, event space. Apartments should be part, at least as a bigger plan. That area needs people living there.

Yeah Collison's article alluded to more mixed use functions within stadium/arena projects but they are still typically independent buildings within a project site, not always seamlessly merged together into a hyper integrated mixed-use function. It's complicated to get many different architects/project teams to coordinate the more integrated things get but collaboration tools will continue to get better over time that will allow for more complex interaction within projects. Hopefully stadium architects think about taking integrated public access even a step further than what's happening today.

I've been a solutions/enterprise architect on IT side and we've always been thinking about collaboration methods to accomplish far more complex things 5+ years into the future, refining wacky ideas. Collaboration tools are a part of that, allowing dozens of different entities involved around world to deliver extremely complex visions.

The common theme I've been pressing on the rag has been isolated islands vs. collaboration/publicly accessible integration on pretty much every level and this potential project is an opportunity to take collaboration to a new level. W/out an early integrated vision isolated islands can quickly result (Hi W&R project team).

GRID wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:54 pm

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:41 pm Some of you over index way too much based on what you read here or online comments. Vocal minorites are going to vocal minority.

The plans are coming together for a fairly normal ballpark in the east village. There are smart people involved. KC has no shortage of good sports architects and they are familiar with Kansas City and the flagship elements the ballpark will demand.

The two main issues will be the public/private financing and making sure it's part of a neighborhood and not an island surrounded by surface lots. Not the size or price of concessions.

I do think there is space to make more mixed use stadiums. You can do basics like ground floor, transparent Hof/museum, team store, bar, event space. Apartments should be part, at least as a bigger plan. That area needs people living there.

There will be time to discuss all that.

God, I hope you are right, but it's depressing as hell reading the comments on every single online format there is (reddit, kc star, facebook, twitter, the local KC news channels etc). I mean it's like 95% of the people are not just against a downtown park, they get extremely worked up about even the idea. I guess time will tell, but unless this is going to happen without a public vote, I don't see it happening.

It's a little more complex than a public vote, and it's so early. I would say the general feeling, if not concensus feeling, is that the royals are ready to leave tsc and move downtown.

That breakup will take planning, and the chiefs will be involved too. They're going to want something. Planning that will be complex and the talks are above my pay grade. But people will be cognizant of the plan they give to the people.

Talks are so early, but I'm hopeful it'll be sold to the KC public as a signature city project. Expect the people involved to try to get promises for big events to help sell it. The royals parade, PL watch parties being shown on the, NFL draft, etc, they all play well in KC as a pride thing.

I know everyone is really hoping for the wc games to keep Kansas City with an image of a national and international player in American sports.
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If you think these conversations aren't happening, you're wrong. It's just a very delicate subject because people truly do love Kaufman and it all has to be rolled out perfectly. Everyone knows there's a save Kaufman campaign coming.

The Chiefs are going to be getting the TSC to themselves and can finally turn The K into practice fields/training area.

And, I don't know what a "signature city project" is necessarily, but it sounds an awful lot like something that is expected to receive 100% public financing. Which I will not support. If we want to gift the land to The Royals, that's fine, but they don't get a free billion dollar stadium. No way.

I'm hopeful Jackson county can get out of the stadium business altogether. It's just dumb luck we actually ended up with two good stadiums the last time around.

WSPanic wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:52 pm The Chiefs are going to be getting the TSC to themselves and can finally turn The K into practice fields/training area.

They'll tear the current stadium down. The cost of facility maintenance would far surpass it's value over the long run.

No kidding.

WSPanic wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:57 pmNo kidding.

So it will become parking, they won't move their practice facility when they can add premium parking that close to an entrance.

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flyingember wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:07 pm

WSPanic wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:57 pmNo kidding.

So it will become parking, they won't move their practice facility when they can add premium parking that close to an entrance.

I bet they build a new Arrowhead Stadium on the old K site.

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:32 am the new mayor of independence is now very angry, although she makes an excellent point about what would happen to the existing stadium if a new one were built downtown (likely demolished, although there are reuse possibilities).

More parking space (and $$$ for the Hunts) for the Arrowhead tailgaters.

I don't know how much this would add to the kitty but Jackson county developing some of the TSC land into something couldn't hurt.

WSPanic wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:52 pm t it sounds an awful lot like something that is expected to receive 100% public financing. Which I will not support. If we want to gift the land to The Royals, that's fine, but they don't get a free billion dollar stadium. No way.

I'm hopeful Jackson county can get out of the stadium business altogether. It's just dumb luck we actually ended up with two good stadiums the last time around.

Agree, which is why it should be a project that involves primarily daily public access functions that secondarily happens to have a baseball/event field fused into it. Rather than an isolated baseball stadium that has some separate hotel/residential, which only those using those functions benefit from.