KCRag Forum

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I just want to say I think we got a serious problem is Texas and Oklahoma leave, and the Big 12 goes down the drain. KC's best sporting event of the year is that downtown Big 12 tournament and we are screwed if the conference dies and we lose that tournament. That would be a colossal loss for us. We better be hoping that the conference stays intact.

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:30 pm I guess the better question to ask other than does anyone want a stadium downtown is if anyone else wants it in East Village?

I wouldn't say plans for a downtown stadium are dead but since people still dream about one the plans will always be around. Covid has changed sports at all levels and that change will be around for a long time. The future holds a new normal and no one knows what that will be. Much like steaming TV services that show new movie releases at the same time they are shown in movie theaters sport teams and leagues may move and more to that type of distribution of their games. Already many teams show their home games on local TV and there is MLB on cable/satellite. Same can be said for NHL and NBA. Crowd sizes are down and if that becomes a long term trend there will no longer be a need for large stadiums and arenas.
The Royals will be staying at the sports complex for at least, I think, the next nine years. New stadiums in the recent past were built in upwards to $1B or more, something I don't see the team, the city, nor the county willing to bankroll at this time.

aknowledgeableperson wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:12 pm

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:30 pm I guess the better question to ask other than does anyone want a stadium downtown is if anyone else wants it in East Village?

I wouldn't say plans for a downtown stadium are dead but since people still dream about one the plans will always be around. Covid has changed sports at all levels and that change will be around for a long time. The future holds a new normal and no one knows what that will be. Much like steaming TV services that show new movie releases at the same time they are shown in movie theaters sport teams and leagues may move and more to that type of distribution of their games. Already many teams show their home games on local TV and there is MLB on cable/satellite. Same can be said for NHL and NBA. Crowd sizes are down and if that becomes a long term trend there will no longer be a need for large stadiums and arenas.
The Royals will be staying at the sports complex for at least, I think, the next nine years. New stadiums in the recent past were built in upwards to $1B or more, something I don't see the team, the city, nor the county willing to bankroll at this time.

I think the downtown stadium in KC continues to get more attractive each year that goes by. More and more gets added each year. But I think people really have forgotten that Sherman said one of the main reasons he has his eyes on downtown is because they'd get more corporate sponsors and money by moving downtown. It's not all about attendance/parking.

Nine years is pretty realistically the long end of a new stadium downtown if they began work today. White sheet to opening day would be in the 5-8 year timeframe.

Buffalo Bills lease is up in 2023 and they're debating what to do with a new stadium. I watched them talk about and they said they want to go to downtown Buffalo because it'll build up development. Kinda made me realize even further that some people on here get too into the weeds about the stadium locations and the benefits, etc. when even in Buffalo they know this is common sense to go downtown with stadiums. I'm not saying Chiefs should but the Royals is a no-brainer. Again, even Buffalo knows this and they're trying to do it.

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:46 pm Buffalo Bills lease is up in 2023 and they're debating what to do with a new stadium. I watched them talk about and they said they want to go to downtown Buffalo because it'll build up development. Kinda made me realize even further that some people on here get too into the weeds about the stadium locations and the benefits, etc. when even in Buffalo they know this is common sense to go downtown with stadiums. I'm not saying Chiefs should but the Royals is a no-brainer. Again, even Buffalo knows this and they're trying to do it.

Didn't know that Orchard Park was in downtown Buffalo.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/ne ... ar-AAMP4CX
"According to The Buffalo News, Pegula Sports and Entertainment pitched a $1.1 billion proposal for a new stadium in Orchard Park. It would be $1.5 billion when you add in renovations for KeyBank Center. And they want the taxpayers to pay for it."

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:46 pm Buffalo Bills lease is up in 2023 and they're debating what to do with a new stadium. I watched them talk about and they said they want to go to downtown Buffalo because it'll build up development. Kinda made me realize even further that some people on here get too into the weeds about the stadium locations and the benefits, etc. when even in Buffalo they know this is common sense to go downtown with stadiums. I'm not saying Chiefs should but the Royals is a no-brainer. Again, even Buffalo knows this and they're trying to do it.

Okay, you want an NBA team downtown, royals to move, and skc.

The first would require renovations and the latter two new builds.

How do you propose they're all paid for? The royals were incredibly cheap last time and rejected a downtown stadium and asked people to not even bring it up, skc notoriously went to Kansas because Missouri refused to pay for it, and we know how well Sprint center and p&l play in the KC press these days.

The royals are actively looking downtown, the land in the East village is banked, but it's hard. You're kidding if you think they're going to make any noise until the pandemic is over and the economy recovered.

Also if the royals get a new stadium, the chiefs will be asking for something. It's so complex

You make an offer to all the teams that are willing to make a move DT. “We have land banked at X location and will give X% of incentives based on current attendance. First one to agree gets the deal.” Create some urgency. I’ve never understood the idea that if we give an incentive to one it means we have to give the same to the others.

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:05 pm Also if the royals get a new stadium, the chiefs will be asking for something. It's so complex

Very much so. The Royals also help maintain the massive parking lots at the sports complex.

I still say KC just needs to improve the sports complex and the area around it, improve transit to the stadiums and concentrate on bringing a pro team to the sprint center. I also think Sporting KC leaving that stadium is a pipe dream at least for another 15 years.

There is no way KC will EVER pull off building a billion dollar downtown stadium. KC just does not do things like that. A stadium plus all the needed infrastructure improvements will cost 1.5 billion. And the Chiefs will be asking what about them at the same time.

Not going to happen. Be realistic.

I think even the most optimistic people I talk to think the '30s. There is an acceptance that the royals and chiefs need to divorce at some point, but the question is how?

Skc should have been downtown from the beginning but the mayor and ownership fucked that up. I think eventually they'll fix that, but I don't know when.

There isn't really a huge legacy project planned right now for KC, largely because of covid and lack of public support. We had the convention center, go bonds, airport. There will be more projects to come along. My guess is East village.

I wish Jackson County would come out right now and indicate their position on stadium rebuilds. Will they only ask taxpayers to fund a new baseball stadium at Truman Sports Complex, or would County leaders also be willing to fund a new baseball stadium downtown? Answer this question now. If their position is that Jackson County will only be involved if the Royals stay at TSC, then that at least allows us to release land-banked parcels in the East Village for other kinds of development.

Keep in mind that legislators from Independence, Blue Springs, Raytown, Grain Valley, Grandview, and Lee's Summit might not ever support Jackson County taxpayers helping fund a new stadium downtown.

If the County only will fund a stadium at TSC, will Royals management decide to stay there instead of trying to build a stadium with mostly private money?

aknowledgeableperson wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:00 pm

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:46 pm Buffalo Bills lease is up in 2023 and they're debating what to do with a new stadium. I watched them talk about and they said they want to go to downtown Buffalo because it'll build up development. Kinda made me realize even further that some people on here get too into the weeds about the stadium locations and the benefits, etc. when even in Buffalo they know this is common sense to go downtown with stadiums. I'm not saying Chiefs should but the Royals is a no-brainer. Again, even Buffalo knows this and they're trying to do it.

Didn't know that Orchard Park was in downtown Buffalo.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/ne ... ar-AAMP4CX
"According to The Buffalo News, Pegula Sports and Entertainment pitched a $1.1 billion proposal for a new stadium in Orchard Park. It would be $1.5 billion when you add in renovations for KeyBank Center. And they want the taxpayers to pay for it."

I watched a local news outlet talk about downtown Buffalo as a possibility, and they spoke about the benefits of it. But I do think it's interesting that you mention $1.1 to 1.5 bil coming from Buffalo but we pretend here it's impossible to get money...in a metro twice the size. Go ahead, give your excuses for why it's "different here" but the bottom line is if tiny Buffalo is gonna crank out $1.5 bil, any metro can if it comes to it.

P.S.- I did find it funny that nobody on this Buffalo news report said anything like "gee we have perfectly good facilities right now, why get anything better?"

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:04 pm

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:46 pm Buffalo Bills lease is up in 2023 and they're debating what to do with a new stadium. I watched them talk about and they said they want to go to downtown Buffalo because it'll build up development. Kinda made me realize even further that some people on here get too into the weeds about the stadium locations and the benefits, etc. when even in Buffalo they know this is common sense to go downtown with stadiums. I'm not saying Chiefs should but the Royals is a no-brainer. Again, even Buffalo knows this and they're trying to do it.

Okay, you want an NBA team downtown, royals to move, and skc.

The first would require renovations and the latter two new builds.

How do you propose they're all paid for? The royals were incredibly cheap last time and rejected a downtown stadium and asked people to not even bring it up, skc notoriously went to Kansas because Missouri refused to pay for it, and we know how well Sprint center and p&l play in the KC press these days.

The royals are actively looking downtown, the land in the East village is banked, but it's hard. You're kidding if you think they're going to make any noise until the pandemic is over and the economy recovered.

SKC is the least important one I want downtown right, NBA is sort of irrelevant here because they're gonna obviously have to be downtown. The Royals are the big one to get, and the one I'd be focused on the most.

Personally I'm a believer that the voting bloc in KC is more progressive on things than it gets credit for, for example the streetcar and airport votes were way off on how close they were supposed to be, and each one of these votes people were "shocked" at how many more people wanted progress than what we expected. I'm not saying ask the taxpayers for money at all, but what I am saying is that I think there's way more of an appetite amongst the KC residents for downtown baseball than people think. Possibly even amongst season ticket holders.

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:19 am

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:04 pm

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:46 pm Buffalo Bills lease is up in 2023 and they're debating what to do with a new stadium. I watched them talk about and they said they want to go to downtown Buffalo because it'll build up development. Kinda made me realize even further that some people on here get too into the weeds about the stadium locations and the benefits, etc. when even in Buffalo they know this is common sense to go downtown with stadiums. I'm not saying Chiefs should but the Royals is a no-brainer. Again, even Buffalo knows this and they're trying to do it.

Okay, you want an NBA team downtown, royals to move, and skc.

The first would require renovations and the latter two new builds.

How do you propose they're all paid for? The royals were incredibly cheap last time and rejected a downtown stadium and asked people to not even bring it up, skc notoriously went to Kansas because Missouri refused to pay for it, and we know how well Sprint center and p&l play in the KC press these days.

The royals are actively looking downtown, the land in the East village is banked, but it's hard. You're kidding if you think they're going to make any noise until the pandemic is over and the economy recovered.

SKC is the least important one I want downtown right, NBA is sort of irrelevant here because they're gonna obviously have to be downtown. The Royals are the big one to get, and the one I'd be focused on the most.

Personally I'm a believer that the voting bloc in KC is more progressive on things than it gets credit for, for example the streetcar and airport votes were way off on how close they were supposed to be, and each one of these votes people were "shocked" at how many more people wanted progress than what we expected. I'm not saying ask the taxpayers for money at all, but what I am saying is that I think there's way more of an appetite amongst the KC residents for downtown baseball than people think. Possibly even amongst season ticket holders.

You keep saying this and it's completely false. People here played big roles in those votes and I don't know anyone that wasn't confident going in to them.

They were very strategically run.

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:14 am

aknowledgeableperson wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:00 pm

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:46 pm Buffalo Bills lease is up in 2023 and they're debating what to do with a new stadium. I watched them talk about and they said they want to go to downtown Buffalo because it'll build up development. Kinda made me realize even further that some people on here get too into the weeds about the stadium locations and the benefits, etc. when even in Buffalo they know this is common sense to go downtown with stadiums. I'm not saying Chiefs should but the Royals is a no-brainer. Again, even Buffalo knows this and they're trying to do it.

Didn't know that Orchard Park was in downtown Buffalo.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/ne ... ar-AAMP4CX
"According to The Buffalo News, Pegula Sports and Entertainment pitched a $1.1 billion proposal for a new stadium in Orchard Park. It would be $1.5 billion when you add in renovations for KeyBank Center. And they want the taxpayers to pay for it."

I watched a local news outlet talk about downtown Buffalo as a possibility, and they spoke about the benefits of it. But I do think it's interesting that you mention $1.1 to 1.5 bil coming from Buffalo but we pretend here it's impossible to get money...in a metro twice the size. Go ahead, give your excuses for why it's "different here" but the bottom line is if tiny Buffalo is gonna crank out $1.5 bil, any metro can if it comes to it.

P.S.- I did find it funny that nobody on this Buffalo news report said anything like "gee we have perfectly good facilities right now, why get anything better?"

Buffalo has been struggling with how to deal with that stadium for a long time and there is constant threats of the Bills leaving for a larger market (Toronto comes up often). They have a long way to go still. Also, Buffalo and the MO side of KC are about the same size. That is one of KC's biggest problems. KC is already a relatively small major league market, but the MO side alone has to carry the funding weight of the entire metro and much of that is on KCMO and Jackson County alone.

That's why you will never see a new stadium like you see in other markets. In KC, You will see either another reno or a very very cheaply done new stadium thrown up somewhere with minimal infrastructure improvements, no real "mass" transit etc. A proper new downtown stadium with all the needed infrastructure improvements would cost 1.5 billion not including transit improvements. KCMO, MOdot etc would try to be all in for like 400 million, a cheap stadium surrounded by crumbling roads, sidewalks and bridges that will bog down terribly before and after games. May as well keep the TSC.

And even the MO side of KC is fragmented with no regional leadership. With the right leadership, I do think people in multiple counties would support major investments, but that leadership is not really even there on the KCMO level, let alone on the KCMO + suburban Jackson/Clay/Platte/Cass county level.

I honestly just don't see it happening and I'm honestly not sure it should happen. Parts of KCMO are decent, but so much of the city still needs billions of infrastructure improvements including most of downtown and midtown outside the P&L district. The sidewalks, the parks system, the highway system (in downtown area but also out to stadiums) etc is all is really bad shape or just super dated compared to most major cities.

I just think the stadiums are fine and the metro should be doing some other things. But that's my opinion.

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:02 am

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:19 am

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:04 pm

Okay, you want an NBA team downtown, royals to move, and skc.

The first would require renovations and the latter two new builds.

How do you propose they're all paid for? The royals were incredibly cheap last time and rejected a downtown stadium and asked people to not even bring it up, skc notoriously went to Kansas because Missouri refused to pay for it, and we know how well Sprint center and p&l play in the KC press these days.

The royals are actively looking downtown, the land in the East village is banked, but it's hard. You're kidding if you think they're going to make any noise until the pandemic is over and the economy recovered.

SKC is the least important one I want downtown right, NBA is sort of irrelevant here because they're gonna obviously have to be downtown. The Royals are the big one to get, and the one I'd be focused on the most.

Personally I'm a believer that the voting bloc in KC is more progressive on things than it gets credit for, for example the streetcar and airport votes were way off on how close they were supposed to be, and each one of these votes people were "shocked" at how many more people wanted progress than what we expected. I'm not saying ask the taxpayers for money at all, but what I am saying is that I think there's way more of an appetite amongst the KC residents for downtown baseball than people think. Possibly even amongst season ticket holders.

You keep saying this and it's completely false. People here played big roles in those votes and I don't know anyone that wasn't confident going in to them.

They were very strategically run.

Well that can be disproved in like 2 seconds. You can literally go back to the earlier threads on this very site and see all the people who were nervous/unsure or who flat out said “airport won’t have enough votes to pass”. Throughout the whole process nobody was confident at all, atleast on here. Go look at the streetcar one too, same things. Im not pulling it out of my ass for no reason, I’m saying it because I saw it for myself on this site (which is the bulk of where people follow all this stuff go to)

It’s absolutely asinine for you to say everyone was confident those votes would pass and say it’s “completely false”. The amount of defeatism/negativity on those votes is similar to what you see here in this thread too, which is my point.

If a stadium is going to a vote, it would be because tax $$ is being used. A key reason behind KCI success was communicating that there would be no tax increase. Iirc, streetcar is being built where the people have always voted for rail proposals.

No clear benefit/experience improvement AND asking for tax dollars will be a very very very hard sell. Stadium subsidies have been declining in popularity across the nation.

normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:57 am If a stadium is going to a vote, it would be because tax $$ is being used. A key reason behind KCI success was communicating that there would be no tax increase. Iirc, streetcar is being built where the people have always voted for rail proposals.

No clear benefit/experience improvement AND asking for tax dollars will be a very very very hard sell. Stadium subsidies have been declining in popularity across the nation.

The airport vote was also scheduled around the go bonds to avoid problems with messaging (much to the frustration of a few of us.) And the streetcar was structured to avoid areas that failed in prior elections. That’s why you have people now saying we need a regional tax.

Stadiums would be a hard tax to pass. I don’t think we have any hotel or rental tax room either