Downtown Baseball Stadium

[normalthings]

ATL is the only comparable project. Anything from before, and especially the 90s, are out of date.

[AlkaliAxel]

ATL is the only comparable project. Anything from before, and especially the 90s, are out of date.

The Atlanta project is suburban. The reason we haven't seen as many urban models these days is because there are none left to do- most were completed in 90's & 2000's. All the messed up stadiums from 70's have been rectified...except Kansas City & maybe Anaheim.

A Royals stadium in the Crossroads stadium would be more urban and not really able to support a widespread suburban district. I don't really see a district being needed in Crossroads, because it's already built up.

[KCPowercat]

ATL has no relevance here.

[Cratedigger]

ATL has no relevance here.

Has been referenced many times by both the Royals ownership group and Populous. The concepts from ATL have relevance

[beautyfromashes]

Build it on North Loop. I hate the Flashcube building anyway.

[DColeKC]

So why would we plop a stadium where development can and is happening in the crossroads. It's like you are making a great case for EV but don't realize it. It's got better infrastructure around it for supporting a building used 20% of the year without having to add more.

Everybody saying they hate tearing down buildings but advocating for the only site tearing down dozens of buildings is just lying to themselves.

I’m hearing this “only used x-amount of time” a year stuff and it’s not a complete argument.

In a bad year, 1.5 million people will attend this stadium in that “20% of the year”. That economic impact to surrounding businesses more than offset the downtime of a stadium.

During a playoff year that number can more than double. And these stadiums are used year round even when the field is closed.

[DColeKC]

ATL has no relevance here.

Has been referenced many times by both the Royals ownership group and Populous. The concepts from ATL have relevance

Especially if EV is chosen because they’ll want to own and control all of it. The royals ownership will become landlords and a mini Zona Rosa style development will go up.

Not a fan.

[GRID]

So why would we plop a stadium where development can and is happening in the crossroads. It's like you are making a great case for EV but don't realize it. It's got better infrastructure around it for supporting a building used 20% of the year without having to add more.

Everybody saying they hate tearing down buildings but advocating for the only site tearing down dozens of buildings is just lying to themselves.

I’m hearing this “only used x-amount of time” a year stuff and it’s not a complete argument.

In a bad year, 1.5 million people will attend this stadium in that “20% of the year”. That economic impact to surrounding businesses more than offset the downtime of a stadium.

During a playoff year that number can more than double. And these stadiums are used year round even when the field is closed.

The problem is it's not as big of an impact as you might think. Sure, a few bars and restaurants will be busy on game days (really just a couple hours before and maybe after games). But for the most part, games really don't contribute that much to those places. 95-99% of fans that go to games go to the stadium and then go back home, even in the most urban ballparks.

The only way you have sustainable retail around stadium is if you have a full blown residential (and office/hotel) neighborhood that supports that retail all the other times.

But 5% of 20,000 is 1000 people looking for places to eat etc, and that will make the places around a stadium busy on game days.

I just feel like a stadium in EV would be very isolated. Meaning it will be a VERY dead area of the downtown area unless it's right before or after a game and then it will just "appear" vibrant while everybody migrates to and from their cars.

Most downtown stadiums have nothing around them and if you visit them during a none game, they are vast dead zones in whatever city they are in.

San Diego is an exception because the stadium was placed right next to the Gaslamp Quarter. Imagine if the stadium in KC was built right next to the Plaza. Even Denver's stadium is just a tad bit far from the LoDo and so the actual stadium area has been a dead zone. In the past ten years, Coors has seen residential development much closer to the stadium though.

DC's stadium is also now more of an exception, but it took 15 years of very intense development for retail to actually work near the stadium. I'm talking about 5-10 new towers a year for like ten years in a small area. Again, the blocks near the stadium were the last to develop. They stayed parking lots the longest.

It comes down to what people in KC want. Putting a stadium in EV will fill the area up and support the P&L district. It might work there, but I don't see a lot of additional development happening unless the city is VERY aggressive in making sure it does and KCMO is not likely to do that. Look how long it's taken and how much subsidies it has taken to build the Light towers. Even if a couple of towers are built, the EV is just not a location that will have organic growth. It's a government office district that is physically separated from the rest of the city (except P&L) by freeways. So it will never be a thriving area if it's dominated by a stadium and even more parking.

There is no perfect place for a stadium. There was probably 15-20 years ago before all the development in the Crossroads. But I still think spots can be found where the trade off of any demo would be worth it. There are still large undeveloped areas of the crossroads like this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0897916 ... 384!8i8192

Then you take the ballpark off the table for EV and let that area freaking develop. An EV filled with residential and hotels would be much better for downtown than a stadium in that location.

[aknowledgeableperson]

The County might not 'play ball' for the jail site and/or with that location they could potentially insert themselves and have too much leverage on the process.

As I understand it the County hasn't given up keeping the Royals at TSC. So the question would be if tax money is needed can KCMO handle the full amount with a public vote on a new tax? Or would the County have the leverage to have a vote to extend a current sales tax?

[shinatoo]

=KCDowntown post_id=6

Finally, as I've mentioned before I've been tracking the KCMO parcel viewer on these sites since 2019 and we finally had a change of ownership on a parcel. In the Jail site, 1403 Holmes parcel changed hands to an entity called VJ Enterprises. I did some research on 'VJ Enterprises' but didn't find much - their incorporation documents lead back to lawyers instead of the owners which seems like standard practice. I'm trying to see if I can tie any land ownership downtown back to someone associated with the Royals large ownership group or if the city started banking land, but so far its been a 3-year dead end. One other note, there's a couple of parcels in the NE Crossroads that have baseball-related names - it's probably a coincidence as their ownership predates Sherman's take over in 2019 but I thought it was interesting (i.e. Centerfield Asset Properties, the Squeeze Box, the Royal Building).

I'll try to organize all of this into a cogent thought tomorrow night sometime.

KCDowntown

Thanks for putting that together, well done.

[Cratedigger]

But I still think spots can be found where the trade off of any demo would be worth it. There are still large undeveloped areas of the crossroads like this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0897916 ... 384!8i8192

Would be a great billboard for the church of Scientology...

[phuqueue]

So why would we plop a stadium where development can and is happening in the crossroads. It's like you are making a great case for EV but don't realize it. It's got better infrastructure around it for supporting a building used 20% of the year without having to add more.

Everybody saying they hate tearing down buildings but advocating for the only site tearing down dozens of buildings is just lying to themselves.

I’m hearing this “only used x-amount of time” a year stuff and it’s not a complete argument.

In a bad year, 1.5 million people will attend this stadium in that “20% of the year”. That economic impact to surrounding businesses more than offset the downtime of a stadium.

During a playoff year that number can more than double. And these stadiums are used year round even when the field is closed.

The question isn't about the "economic impact," it's about the day-to-day vibrancy and livability of the neighborhood. A stadium is a huge structure taking up a ton of space, and while the area might be quite lively on game day, it will be a giant dead zone the rest of the year. To everyone driving in from other areas of the city, that doesn't matter, but to local residents, it does.

[GRID]

The question isn't about the "economic impact," it's about the day-to-day vibrancy and livability of the neighborhood. A stadium is a huge structure taking up a ton of space (that demands a ton of standby parking), and while the area might be quite lively on game day, it will be a giant dead zone the rest of the year. To everyone driving in from other areas of the city, that doesn't matter, but to local residents, it does.

Exactly, although I added some to your post. I have spent a lot of time in every city that has a downtown ballpark. I live very near two of them with Baltimore and DC. My son literally lives blocks from Nationals Park, so I am there all the time during games and when there are no games. My son and his wife used to live across the street from the stadium, but moved a few blocks away to get away from it because game days shut down streets and make living a normal life difficult.

The Downtown Loop really does not need another massive dead zone to go along with the convention center and even the TMobile. Fill the "east village" with actual development, mostly high density residential and some hotels and you will create a very cool area. A stadium there will not do anything but make downtown annoying for people that live in the core of downtown on game days. It could actually slow residential growth downtown believe it or not.

[mean]

If it's going to be a giant dead zone anyway, keep it at the giant dead zone that is TSC? /shrug

I dunno, like, seems logical to me? I was hugely HUGELY on a "bring the Royals downtown!" train around 2005, when I lived downtown and had just rediscovered the team I had watched religiously as a child before my heroes all retired or left and the team sunk into the pits of despair. Now I couldn't care less, and frankly, the more we talk about it here, the more it seems like a stupid idea primarily supported by nuevo twentysomething downtowners who generally just think it would be cool but are either disinterested or disinvested in what it would actually DO to the surrounding area in the long run (e.g., best case scenario, probably nothing)--this was me circa 2005--or people whose interest in what "makes a neighborhood great" has nothing to do with what it feels like to exist in that space on a daily basis as a human, but what the "economic impact" could be. These things aren't necessarily at odds, but for practical purposes I think they generally are, at least here where we are absolutely never going to get the kinds of massive infill GRID cited over the course of a decade (10 towers a year for ten or more years? I assume that is just anecdotal, but if that's anywhere NEAR reality, lol, forget about it for KC) to actually make the massive dead zone into something actually vibrant. So what's the point? A billion dollars to make a huge, vibrancy sucking dead zone in the urban core... so we can see skyscrapers on TV! What a... bargain...

[GRID]

Took this pic yesterday. As you can see development has reached the blocks that actually surround the stadium.







Pics of new bridge near stadiums. (wish the new Broadway Bridge had an interesting structure like this)

[AlkaliAxel]

To the above comment (Mean)- GRID’s only saying it will be a flop if it ends up in a place like EV, and he’s probably right. That’s why it *should* go in the Crossroads so that it doesn’t end up being a giant unused unseen black hole for 70% of the year. It will see foot traffic around it if it goes to that XRoads site. All 360 sides surrounding it will have already built in density and development. We need to bring it to an area like this.

EV will be a boring stereotypical use for a stadium. Crossroads could be something special and truly urban like Wrigley.

[DColeKC]

Mean — ^thankfully your pessimistic outlook isn’t shared by people making this happen.

[GRID]

If it's going to be a giant dead zone anyway, keep it at the giant dead zone that is TSC? /shrug

That's my point. I would rather see Downtown continue to grow and let the EV actually properly develop. If you can't find a place that really truly works for a downtown stadium, then leave it where it is and concentrate on building proper transit from downtown to the sports complex.

[DColeKC]

To the above comment- GRID’s only saying it will be a flop if it ends up in a place like EV, and he’s probably right. That’s why it *should* go in the Crossroads so that it doesn’t end up being a giant unused unseen black hole for 70% of the year. It will see foot traffic around it if it goes to that XRoads site. All 360 sides surrounding it will have already built in density and development. We need to bring it to an area like this.

EV will be a boring stereotypical use for a stadium. Crossroads could be something special and truly urban like Wrigley.

Offices and event spaces will be in the stadium. Ground level retail could be incorporated so the exterior of the stadium is open year round. People comparing stadiums built in the 90’s and 2000’s in downtowns are a thing of the past. We have learned from those.

[AlkaliAxel]

To the above comment- GRID’s only saying it will be a flop if it ends up in a place like EV, and he’s probably right. That’s why it *should* go in the Crossroads so that it doesn’t end up being a giant unused unseen black hole for 70% of the year. It will see foot traffic around it if it goes to that XRoads site. All 360 sides surrounding it will have already built in density and development. We need to bring it to an area like this.

EV will be a boring stereotypical use for a stadium. Crossroads could be something special and truly urban like Wrigley.

Offices and event spaces will be in the stadium. Ground level retail could be incorporated so the exterior of the stadium is open year round. People comparing stadiums built in the 90’s and 2000’s in downtowns are a thing of the past. We have learned from those.

I hope they’re for real about this Crossroads site and it’s not just some push-story by the owners of KC Star building or something