Downtown Baseball Stadium

[AlkaliAxel]

Chiefs aren’t leaving arrowhead for several decades if ever. Royals will move downtown sooner than later and it makes zero sense to build anything near arrowhead like an entertainment district. Start with the fact there’s only a handful of home games per year and add in that KC is one of the lowest concession buying markets in all of the NFL due to tailgating. No developer is taking on that project. Football stadiums are meant to be a bit more isolated compared to baseball.

There would be complete outrage if either team crossed the state line. Sporting is trying to get over to the Missouri side.

I'd actually love to see the Chiefs move to Kansas, but yeah I'm willing to let it slide if Chiefs don't move or go downtown.

Arrowhead is probably the most historic stadium in the NFL outside of Lambeau Field. It's has the world sound record and also is a classic original. Furthermore, you're right that I can't really see NFL making a big impact downtown with only 9-10 home games a year if you're counting playoffs too.

My hot take has always been to build a Chiefs stadium on Penn Valley Park so we could actually get some use out of that park for once and it has the amount of land needed for a stadium and lots. But I surmise this will never happen. The Royals...are a different story

[WoodDraw]

The royals and chiefs need to be separated. It's not going to be a fun divorce, but if they're insistent on getting money from the tax payers, we should do it on their own merits.

My opinion is that sporting KC and the royals work much better long term as urban teams. And I think the owners have come around to believe that too.

The chiefs are better on their own. I wouldn't support an urban football stadium.

[alejandro46]

Start with the fact there’s only a handful of home games per year and add in that KC is one of the lowest concession buying markets in all of the NFL due to tailgating. No developer is taking on that project. Football stadiums are meant to be a bit more isolated compared to baseball.

I think that's part of the point of some kind of district - they want more options for people to buy concessions versus bringing their own. I don't know how the math would work out with there being so few games per year. Ballpark Village is centrally located with many baseball games per year.

[AlkaliAxel]

Are we sure Chiefs wouldn't go to Kansas when lease expires? I've heard multiple people say it

[normalthings]

Kansas is reigning in STAR bonds which will make it harder to expand CMH Sporting KC Park or build a Chiefs stadium. I can see Missouri starting a STAR Bond like program to keep an NFL team in the state.

I briefly saw that a group in Nashville is organizing to land an MLB team. Good thing Royals got bought by a local group.


Edit: here are renderings. Almost looks like Cordish is involved based on Music City Live sign.

[herrfrank]

My hot take has always been to build a Chiefs stadium on Penn Valley Park so we could actually get some use out of that park for once and it has the amount of land needed for a stadium and lots. But I surmise this will never happen.

OMG what is with all the vitriol lately about Penn Valley Park

1. Penn Valley Park is historic -- something like two-thirds of the pioneers who settled the West took an established route (now our deeply-regretted, high-speed Broadway rut/cut) from "Westport Landing" aka the Kansas City riverfront to Westport. It was the only hill, modestly graded, they would encounter for a LONG time. The Oregon Trail, the Santa Fe Trail, and the California Trail proceeded westward on carefully platted flatlands radiating outward from Westport, navigable for covered wagons and beasts of burden well onto the High Plains. This pathway "made" Kansas City. Much of the old money in KC derives from families who outfitted and dispatched the pioneers. This ground will always be hallowed. Stadium parking lots? Never.

2. It has a lot of offerings -- a pond, a museum, and several landmarks. Granted it is under-utilized because of the steep inclines from several approaches. Nothing a thoughtful redevelopment couldn't fix. It does need certain additional amenities (toilets and a bar or restaurant wouldn't hurt)

3. It will soon have the streetcar on its eastern edge. Crown Center has been talking about building a honky-tube from one of the Santa Fe Place garages over to the WW1 Museum ( a great idea IMHO )

4. The neighborhoods on its west and south are poised to boom

[normalthings]

My hot take has always been to build a Chiefs stadium on Penn Valley Park so we could actually get some use out of that park for once and it has the amount of land needed for a stadium and lots. But I surmise this will never happen.

OMG what is with all the vitriol lately about Penn Valley Park

1. Penn Valley Park is historic -- something like two-thirds of the pioneers who settled the West took an established route (now our deeply-regretted, high-speed Broadway rut/cut) from "Westport Landing" aka the Kansas City riverfront to Westport. It was the only hill, modestly graded, they would encounter for a LONG time. The Oregon Trail, the Santa Fe Trail, and the California Trail proceeded westward on carefully platted flatlands radiating outward from Westport, navigable for covered wagons and beasts of burden well onto the High Plains. This pathway "made" Kansas City. Much of the old money in KC derives from families who outfitted and dispatched the pioneers. This ground will always be hallowed. Stadium parking lots? Never.

2. It has a lot of offerings -- a pond, a museum, and several landmarks. Granted it is under-utilized because of the steep inclines from several approaches. Nothing a thoughtful redevelopment couldn't fix. It does need certain additional amenities (toilets and a bar or restaurant wouldn't hurt)

3. It will soon have the streetcar on its eastern edge. Crown Center has been talking about building a honky-tube from one of the Santa Fe Place garages over to the WW1 Museum ( a great idea IMHO )

4. The neighborhoods on its west and south are poised to boom

Many of the original designs for WW1 Memorial had bridges over Main Street. IIRC, the original Crown Center plan did too. When recently had Crown Center mulled such an investment? I don’t see the need unless they build more residential towers

[AlkaliAxel]

It's kinda annoying that we've had an MLB team for like 50 years and then in 5 seconds Nashville is gonna come in and have an awesome downtown & riverfront stadium and we're stuck with piece of shit Truman center. That's what were stuck with after 50 years.

[WoodDraw]

If the k was built downtown back when they would have just bulldozed everything.

Maybe we’ll get a chance to do it right

[KC_JAYHAWK]

MLB expansion is years out, probably 2028. Portland is wanting a team as well, so Nashville plus Portland would put total teams to 32. I could also see Vegas wanting a team and maybe San Antonio/Austin. Charlotte also wants a team. MLB won't go beyond 32 teams. Not sure Nashville is big enough to support 3 professional franchises, plus didn't they get a MLS team?

[normalthings]

MLB expansion is years out, probably 2028. Portland is wanting a team as well, so Nashville plus Portland would put total teams to 32. I could also see Vegas wanting a team and maybe San Antonio. They won't go beyond 32 teams.

A’s and Tampa are relocation targets. There was a stir in May after a Tampa City Council member claimed team ownership told her that they were looking at Nashville.

Nashville has some big names attached. A lot of music stars in the ownership group.

The current investor group in the Nashville ballpark effort contains some serious star power; besides Darius Rucker, it includes Luke Comb, Kane Brown and Justin Timberlake, as well as former Tennessee Titans running back Eddie George.

The goal is to present an official expansion proposal to MLB at the 2021 Winter Meetings in Nashville. MLB wants to eventually expand to 32 teams, but there are no current plans.” Enter Timberlake, who Loar courted with the idea. The singer could not refuse to invest in the potential team.

[AlkaliAxel]

I think the A's will move to Vegas at some point. Nashville, Charlotte and Atlanta won't all have teams because it's just too close to each other, and Atlanta's market share is all of that right now. One of either Charlotte/Nashville would get a team I'd think. Portland would get the other. So I could see Tampa moving to Nashville at some point, and then an expansion team going to Austin.

Once all this happens, all the divisions gets reshuffled to 4 division per, and our KC Royals will get booted out of the AL Central and moved probably into a West or Southwest division like we are in NFL.

[DColeKC]

Doesn’t matter if the population of Nashville can support another pro team. It’s just an event city and selling tickets to these games is easy. Half the fans don’t know what’s happening they just know it’s the place to be. Away team attendance is huge in Nashville.

[AlkaliAxel]

Let's say an NBA team moves into T-Mobile Center...how much more development do you think would then spur around it, and what kind? More entertainment, restaurants, apartments?

[Riverite]

Let's say an NBA team moves into T-Mobile Center...how much more development do you think would then spur around it, and what kind? More entertainment, restaurants, apartments?

I could see it catalyzing a large hotel next to it, probably push apartments to be built quicker in downtown and potentially push entertainment options to McGee as well in the long term.

[flyingember]

Let's say an NBA team moves into T-Mobile Center...how much more development do you think would then spur around it, and what kind? More entertainment, restaurants, apartments?

I could see it catalyzing a large hotel next to it, probably push apartments to be built quicker in downtown and potentially push entertainment options to McGee as well in the long term.

Very little alone. It’s 41 home games. You don’t build a business on 10% of the year.

The arena has been busier than that for more than a decade. Remember, it was the 4th busiest arena from 2015-16 and in 2016 was the 13th busiest in the world. If those kind of world class numbers don’t produce development what will?

Now, an arena with a team, a new baseball stadium with a team together seems more likely to produce results since the two seasons don’t overlap much and create 120+ days of games

[beautyfromashes]

Very little alone. It’s 41 home games. You don’t build a business on 10% of the year.

Respectfully, this is wrong. A 10% increase in incremental business in many cases can turn a barely surviving business into a thriving one. Sure, you don't build a business on just baseball business, but it might be just the catalyst needed to take a chance on opening a new business. And businesses build on each other. A hotel stay creates a restaurant bill creates an employee creates an apartment rent creates a clothing purchase...

[AlkaliAxel]

Yeah I think 41 home games (with the possibility of 10+ more playoff home games) would mean alot. I think the buzz for an NBA game at the arena would be alot more than just a concert or rodeo coming through. If I were a developer, I’d capitalize off that.

For example, I would be willing to perhaps move downtown if there was an NBA team there. I wouldn’t if it was just random concerts, etc. That’s the difference.

[flyingember]

Yeah I think 41 home games (with the possibility of 10+ more playoff home games) would mean alot. I think the buzz for an NBA game at the arena would be alot more than just a concert or rodeo coming through. If I were a developer, I’d capitalize off that.

For example, I would be willing to perhaps move downtown if there was an NBA team there. I wouldn’t if it was just random concerts, etc. That’s the difference.

It’s not about who, it’s about how many people visit the arena who also would visit a business the other 90% of the year.

Let’s say you run business X with 10 staff members. They need to earn $1.5 million to be profitable.

That’s 36,500 worth of sales over 41 days. If their average sale is $20 that’s 1830 customers per game.

But if they do half that over 100 days that’s 750 customers per event.

The sales requirements to be successful plummet the more days you can spread the sales out over because staffing requirements are lower to handle fewer customers at the peak. With 40% the sales required the business would hire half the staff, keep prices down and be successful quicker.

That there isn’t a lot of newish businesses in new development basing success on the current numbers shows that something that’s just 10% of the year isn’t good enough. The arena already (until 2020) fills 10% of the year.

Basically. P&L is about as much as the market can support.

[AlkaliAxel]

Yeah I think 41 home games (with the possibility of 10+ more playoff home games) would mean alot. I think the buzz for an NBA game at the arena would be alot more than just a concert or rodeo coming through. If I were a developer, I’d capitalize off that.

For example, I would be willing to perhaps move downtown if there was an NBA team there. I wouldn’t if it was just random concerts, etc. That’s the difference.

It’s not about who, it’s about how many people visit the arena who also would visit a business the other 90% of the year.

Let’s say you run business X with 10 staff members. They need to earn $1.5 million to be profitable.

That’s 36,500 worth of sales over 41 days. If their average sale is $20 that’s 1830 customers per game.

But if they do half that over 100 days that’s 750 customers per event.

The sales requirements to be successful plummet the more days you can spread the sales out over because staffing requirements are lower to handle fewer customers at the peak. With 40% the sales required the business would hire half the staff, keep prices down and be successful quicker.

That there isn’t a lot of newish businesses in new development basing success on the current numbers shows that something that’s just 10% of the year isn’t good enough. The arena already (until 2020) fills 10% of the year.

Basically. P&L is about as much as the market can support.

I heavily disagree with that. Alot more people would move downtown permanently if we got NBA down there. Alot of people in these threads seem to underestimate people's' want and support for more downtown stuff, just like the airport and streetcar people were "shocked" that 75% of people in this market wanted those things. At that logic, then anything that comes downtown won't ever move the needle if an NBA team can't. A hotel and more highrises and entertainment I think would be a given if we had a pro-team down there. People go there now without even having one. I know, anecdotally, atleast a couple friends who would move down there if they did get a team, so once again I think KC underestimates the amount of support it would bring in for people going down there with a team.