Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

beautyfromashes wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:45 am
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:52 am I’d have the same concern if a new hotel wanted to build an outdoor covered ice rink near Crown Center.
You sometimes seem to be a giant contradiction. You seem all Republican-y in the politics section but seem very non-competition here. If a new hotel runs the numbers and think there’s enough $ made to build an ice rink—go for it! If CC can’t compete? I’m sorry, you should have run your business better. Same goes for a Royals entertainment district. The game’s changing. If your business isn’t running at its capacity, you’re at risk. Time for big city games.
Maybe this’ll encourage the P&L to actually fill up all the empty retail spaces as well?
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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beautyfromashes wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:45 am
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:52 am I’d have the same concern if a new hotel wanted to build an outdoor covered ice rink near Crown Center.
You sometimes seem to be a giant contradiction. You seem all Republican-y in the politics section but seem very non-competition here. If a new hotel runs the numbers and think there’s enough $ made to build an ice rink—go for it! If CC can’t compete? I’m sorry, you should have run your business better. Same goes for a Royals entertainment district. The game’s changing. If your business isn’t running at its capacity, you’re at risk. Time for big city games.
This isn't about operating a business. If Cordish allowed another BBQ restaurant to open next door to County Road they wouldn't be great landlords. Even if the demand was there.

My push back is about the amount of people in this city. We are not capable of having dozens of entertainment districts eating each other in close proximity. I don't care how well they run their business. Creating too much competition in one sector can be a good thing and it can be a bad thing.

I likely seem like a giant contradiction because I look at things individually and not with some majestic ideology that all my opinions must come from. You should try it, it's not popular, people will insult you but you'll end up being the smartest person in the room most of the time.

It seems you don't know much about business. You think this city has enough people to support two outdoor ice skating rinks close to each other? All the marketing in the world can only pull so much traffic. We are not NYC or Chicago where they can sustain far more competition. Lastly, tax payers are covering the shortfalls of the cities generous sales tax predictions for PNL, even though it's doing the best it ever has. Why in the world would the city help with anything that's going to only increase those bond payments?

All this is pointless because the Royals are not going to try and do something identical or very similar to PNL on the entertainment front.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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aknowledgeableperson wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:48 am
alejandro46 wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:11 am In addition, I would hope all of this has been run by the Hunts and the city/county before, as all of these public funding puzzle pieces need to fit together. I am hopeful they have some expensive lawyers looking into all of this to make sure it adds up. The Baseball stadium itself isn't that hard to see how the numbers work - the $2b does kind of throw you for a loop, but if you realize that the stadium itself may be in the $700-$800M range then the rest is private development/tif funded it kind of works out. If the state kicks in $500m for the Chiefs/some amount for the Royals, it's forsceeable that a similar cost project could move forward.

Round numbers:
$2B for royals to cover new stadium + downtown district
But lets actually say it's only $722 million - same cost as Atlanta Braves Stadium
- $425M from Sales Tax Jackson County (1/2 sales tax over 25 years)
Team Input: $330M (same estimate as braves)
Total: $755m
New Arrowhead:
-$425M from Jackson County Sales Tax
$840 million from Team (Same as Titans)

When Busch stadium was built, it was 90% private financed, but it also only cost around $355m back in 2006. I wonder if the state would not be as willing to fund the baseball stadium. (https://ballparks.com/baseball/national/stlbpk.htm)

Other Sources:
-State funding $500m (New Titans stadium in Tennessee)
-Expand to Clay County - $230m?
(Expand to Platte County) - $120m?
New TIF- ???
Private Developer match for adjoining development
Your numbers remind me of early real estate informercials. The presenter would say you buy a house for X amount of money with little or no money down. You then go to the bank and secure a loan for X+ amount of money and use a portion of that money to fix it up. You then sale the property for X++ amount of money and put a nice profit into your pockets.
The Atlanta stadium was completed in 2017 so let's say a new stadium is completed in 2032 for opening day. Inflation and higher interest rates will likely cause the cost to be much higher than $722M. Also the current JC sales tax is for both teams and the Royals have stated the team doesn't want current taxpayers to pay more than they are now so I doubt that there would be a 1/2 cent sales tax for a baseball stadium. Won't get into the numbers for the Chiefs which I think are in the same fantasyland as for the Royals.
The big question mark is are the taxpayers willing to pass sales taxes for new stadiums for both teams? Given that it is likely a downtown stadium wouldn't be completed until 2032 it gives people plenty of time discuss the stadium plans for both teams.
2032 completion date would mean they ran into massive issues and a new stadium goes off the table all together for a few years.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:21 am
beautyfromashes wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:45 am
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:52 am I’d have the same concern if a new hotel wanted to build an outdoor covered ice rink near Crown Center.
You sometimes seem to be a giant contradiction. You seem all Republican-y in the politics section but seem very non-competition here. If a new hotel runs the numbers and think there’s enough $ made to build an ice rink—go for it! If CC can’t compete? I’m sorry, you should have run your business better. Same goes for a Royals entertainment district. The game’s changing. If your business isn’t running at its capacity, you’re at risk. Time for big city games.
Maybe this’ll encourage the P&L to actually fill up all the empty retail spaces as well?
I know no one wants to believe me, but they're trying harder than they ever have. They've fired people and hired replacements in order to try and get this done. They have talks with companies like Shake Shack, Hawaiian Bros and a ton of local operators weekly. It's not for lack of effort or willingness to negotiate. The Dubliner is a prime example of them working with an operator to come up with a fair deal.

In the next several months, they'll be able to announce new tenants, existing tenants expanding and other significant movement.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:04 am It seems you don't know much about business.
My whole professional life has been one giant fraud, a huge lie. Feels strangely freeing to finally be called out on it.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

beautyfromashes wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:57 am
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:04 am It seems you don't know much about business.
My whole professional life has been one giant fraud, a huge lie. Feels strangely freeing to finally be called out on it.
Impressed you've made it this long if you can't see how locating two similar, tax subsidized projects near each other with competing elements might be problematic.

Regardless, glad I could set you free.

One more time, I'm specifically talking about the entertainment/bar/restaurant aspect of the Royals development. Not office or residential where competition can be helpful since there's room, demand and the need for more downtown residents.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:09 pm Impressed you've made it this long if you can't see how locating two similar, tax subsidized projects near each other with competing elements might be problematic.

Regardless, glad I could set you free.

One more time, I'm specifically talking about the entertainment/bar/restaurant aspect of the Royals development. Not office or residential where competition can be helpful since there's room, demand and the need for more downtown residents.
Personally, I think Cordish has had it too easy. Some competition would do them good and I think they would respond well. They might have less people in the Live district ordering trays of shots and listening to bad dj music, but they'd adjust and utilize more of the district that's currently being wasted. Instead of focusing on the easy cream, they'd fill the district using every possible space. They'd open rooftops to maximize income. They'd cut rents to attract every possible tenant using volume instead of high margin. Perhaps, the Royals entertainment district would focus on a different clientele with more retail or high-end restaurants instead of bar-fare. P&L for the young single people and divorcees and Royals district for couples on dates. With DT growing Cordish is going to have more competition at some point soon. I'm glad, if what you say is true, that they are starting to actually dig for some new tenants and push demand. I wish that would have happened 15 years ago but at least it's happening. They sure haven't done enough to demand some kind of rights over downtown in any capacity. Competition is always better for growth.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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beautyfromashes wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:19 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:09 pm Impressed you've made it this long if you can't see how locating two similar, tax subsidized projects near each other with competing elements might be problematic.

Regardless, glad I could set you free.

One more time, I'm specifically talking about the entertainment/bar/restaurant aspect of the Royals development. Not office or residential where competition can be helpful since there's room, demand and the need for more downtown residents.
Personally, I think Cordish has had it too easy. Some competition would do them good and I think they would respond well. They might have less people in the Live district ordering trays of shots and listening to bad dj music, but they'd adjust and utilize more of the district that's currently being wasted. Instead of focusing on the easy cream, they'd fill the district using every possible space. They'd open rooftops to maximize income. They'd cut rents to attract every possible tenant using volume instead of high margin. Perhaps, the Royals entertainment district would focus on a different clientele with more retail or high-end restaurants instead of bar-fare. P&L for the young single people and divorcees and Royals district for couples on dates. With DT growing Cordish is going to have more competition at some point soon. I'm glad, if what you say is true, that they are starting to actually dig for some new tenants and push demand. I wish that would have happened 15 years ago but at least it's happening. They sure haven't done enough to demand some kind of rights over downtown in any capacity. Competition is always better for growth.
You think the one developer who was willing to risk millions of their own dollars on this project when downtown was garbage has had it too easy? Sounds pretty typical, "what have you done for me lately" bullshit to me. I don't think competition shouldn't be allowed, it's been allowed since the beginning and many other developers have benefited from Cordish being the first ones in.

Your poor description of what you think happens there with the "trays of shots and bad dj music" is telling. You've either not gone there over the last several years or you're old and not the demographic that finds high energy nightlife appealing. Either way, you're a fool to think this is unique to PNL.
they'd adjust and utilize more of the district that's currently being wasted.
What area is being wasted? You think they're purposely leaving revenue on the table?
They'd cut rents to attract every possible tenant using volume instead of high margin
So uniformed and speculative. Odd that you make such bold comments without having a single bit of evidence to back it up. They already do this. Every single lease is independently negotiable and they all involve lower monthly rent with a profit sharing component once a certain VOLUME is met. How do you think local operators can afford to be in PNL if rent is so high?
Perhaps, the Royals entertainment district would focus on a different clientele with more retail or high-end restaurants instead of bar-fare.
You're right, Bristol, 801 Chophouse, BRGR = Bar-fare
P&L for the young single people and divorcees and Royals district for couples on dates.
This is just ignorant. Another clear indication you're not a frequent customer of PNL. Every time I go there, even on event nights, I see people from all ages and walks of life. Of course it can skew younger because well, more younger people go out drinking than older people.

They sure haven't done enough to demand some kind of rights over downtown in any capacity.
I don't think any developer can do enough to demand rights over a certain area unless they control the land. Cordish has certainly done enough to help lay the groundwork that now allows downtown the opportunity to even be considering a downtown baseball stadium. I know I'm pro cordish but you can't realistic be on the opinion, fuck them, they don't deserve any consideration.
Competition is always better for growth.
Probably the most telling comment you've made to be able to assess your business acumen. It's "always" better huh? If the demand isn't there, it decreases a companies market share and available customer base.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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Goodness royals town will not be a direct replica of Cordish town. They will both be fine. Such deep seated inferiority complex dominates this city's mindset.

Any Cordish mouthpiece saying the city shouldn't grow because they got such a city sweet deal and don't want to possibly threaten a dime flowing into Cordish town is pretty frustrating
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:44 pm I know I'm pro cordish but you can't realistic be on the opinion, fuck them, they don't deserve any consideration.
Final comment: No, not fuck them. They are an asset to KC. But, no they don't deserve any consideration(.) They got their deal and that's all they're entitled to. They should have zero say in what happens in other developments or how the city grows the downtown area.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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beautyfromashes wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:06 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:44 pm I know I'm pro cordish but you can't realistic be on the opinion, fuck them, they don't deserve any consideration.
Final comment: No, not fuck them. They are an asset to KC. But, no they don't deserve any consideration(.) They got their deal and that's all they're entitled to. They should have zero say in what happens in other developments or how the city grows the downtown area.
Yeah this is where I am. I appreciate the heck out of Cordish but we aren't beholden to them.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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beautyfromashes wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:06 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:44 pm I know I'm pro cordish but you can't realistic be on the opinion, fuck them, they don't deserve any consideration.
Final comment: No, not fuck them. They are an asset to KC. But, no they don't deserve any consideration(.) They got their deal and that's all they're entitled to. They should have zero say in what happens in other developments or how the city grows the downtown area.
They've invested a billion dollars into our downtown. They shouldn't have a say in what may impact that investment?

If you were a major investor in a company or area, would you want a say in things that might impact your investment?

What about all the tax payers who individually have a tiny stake but collectively speaking a very large stake downtown, shouldn't they have a say in how downtown is developed if their money (investment) is being used?

They got their deal and that includes operating it for years to come. I'm positive the powers to be from both sides will talk about this with each other, and they won't be considering your input or mine. Cordish revitalizes areas for a living, I think they'll work very well with Sherman to ensure both projects work.
Last edited by DColeKC on Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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KCPowercat wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:58 pm Goodness royals town will not be a direct replica of Cordish town. They will both be fine. Such deep seated inferiority complex dominates this city's mindset.

Any Cordish mouthpiece saying the city shouldn't grow because they got such a city sweet deal and don't want to possibly threaten a dime flowing into Cordish town is pretty frustrating
I'm not the one worried about it. I mention protecting a major city investment and it's all a few people in here can talk about. I think my stance of not having tax payers finance multiple projects that won't compliment each other and could hurt each other is a very normal take. The reactions to this are once again assuming I'm simply defending a developer and not the entire interest of downtown as a whole.

No Cordish mouthpiece is saying the city shouldn't grow. Did you miss the part where Cordish helped fund the downtown ballpark study?

You old heads are something else man. Remove ME from this conversation and forum and you'd have a more realistic take.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:07 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:58 pm Goodness royals town will not be a direct replica of Cordish town. They will both be fine. Such deep seated inferiority complex dominates this city's mindset.

Any Cordish mouthpiece saying the city shouldn't grow because they got such a city sweet deal and don't want to possibly threaten a dime flowing into Cordish town is pretty frustrating
I'm not the one worried about it. I mention protecting a major city investment and it's all a few people in here can talk about. I think my stance of not having tax payers finance multiple projects that won't compliment each other and could hurt each other is a very normal take. The reactions to this are once again assuming I'm simply defending a developer and not the entire interest of downtown as a whole.
I mean this is what people are posting on social media and news website comments. Even top State Leg posted about not wanting to compete with existing businesses.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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KCPowercat wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:58 pm Goodness royals town will not be a direct replica of Cordish town. They will both be fine. Such deep seated inferiority complex dominates this city's mindset.

Any Cordish mouthpiece saying the city shouldn't grow because they got such a city sweet deal and don't want to possibly threaten a dime flowing into Cordish town is pretty frustrating
Fair enough but if the TIF shortcoming is still being paid out of the general fund, there is the potential to have two entertainment entities in downtown where the city is financially involved and competing with itself. I always prefer strengthening existing infrastructure and entertainment venues rather than building anew, especially where a strong argument can be made that the city (and especially downtown) is already overbuilt in that regard. The Royal's stadium move is a good deal for the city but it also creates a dilemma for the city because the East Village and East Crossroads locations each come with significant downsides (duplicate or create something new in one case and destroy existing organic venues in the other).
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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They're not gonna cannibalize eachother, they're going to end up being different types of districts. The real question is what are we going to do with the streetscape in between P&L and East Village so that people can traverse between both sites and not see death on the side while they're walking.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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Highlander wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:47 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:58 pm Goodness royals town will not be a direct replica of Cordish town. They will both be fine. Such deep seated inferiority complex dominates this city's mindset.

Any Cordish mouthpiece saying the city shouldn't grow because they got such a city sweet deal and don't want to possibly threaten a dime flowing into Cordish town is pretty frustrating
Fair enough but if the TIF shortcoming is still being paid out of the general fund, there is the potential to have two entertainment entities in downtown where the city is financially involved and competing with itself. I always prefer strengthening existing infrastructure and entertainment venues rather than building anew, especially where a strong argument can be made that the city (and especially downtown) is already overbuilt in that regard. The Royal's stadium move is a good deal for the city but it also creates a dilemma for the city because the East Village and East Crossroads locations each come with significant downsides (duplicate or create something new in one case and destroy existing organic venues in the other).
Well it's a false narrative to assume the funding is the same at this point. That's my beef with all these discussion points
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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DColeKC wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:07 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:58 pm Goodness royals town will not be a direct replica of Cordish town. They will both be fine. Such deep seated inferiority complex dominates this city's mindset.

Any Cordish mouthpiece saying the city shouldn't grow because they got such a city sweet deal and don't want to possibly threaten a dime flowing into Cordish town is pretty frustrating
I'm not the one worried about it. I mention protecting a major city investment and it's all a few people in here can talk about. I think my stance of not having tax payers finance multiple projects that won't compliment each other and could hurt each other is a very normal take. The reactions to this are once again assuming I'm simply defending a developer and not the entire interest of downtown as a whole.

Again let's not assume anything about financing and what the city is at risk for before we actually see the plan.

I'm totally fine with the city paying a crap ton for pnl. It was well worth the investment and we have city owned garages buried which is where the big spend was.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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aknowledgeableperson wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:48 am
alejandro46 wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:11 am In addition, I would hope all of this has been run by the Hunts and the city/county before, as all of these public funding puzzle pieces need to fit together. I am hopeful they have some expensive lawyers looking into all of this to make sure it adds up. The Baseball stadium itself isn't that hard to see how the numbers work - the $2b does kind of throw you for a loop, but if you realize that the stadium itself may be in the $700-$800M range then the rest is private development/tif funded it kind of works out. If the state kicks in $500m for the Chiefs/some amount for the Royals, it's forsceeable that a similar cost project could move forward.

Round numbers:
$2B for royals to cover new stadium + downtown district
But lets actually say it's only $722 million - same cost as Atlanta Braves Stadium
- $425M from Sales Tax Jackson County (1/2 sales tax over 25 years)
Team Input: $330M (same estimate as braves)
Total: $755m
New Arrowhead:
-$425M from Jackson County Sales Tax
$840 million from Team (Same as Titans)

When Busch stadium was built, it was 90% private financed, but it also only cost around $355m back in 2006. I wonder if the state would not be as willing to fund the baseball stadium. (https://ballparks.com/baseball/national/stlbpk.htm)

Other Sources:
-State funding $500m (New Titans stadium in Tennessee)
-Expand to Clay County - $230m?
(Expand to Platte County) - $120m?
New TIF- ???
Private Developer match for adjoining development
Your numbers remind me of early real estate informercials. The presenter would say you buy a house for X amount of money with little or no money down. You then go to the bank and secure a loan for X+ amount of money and use a portion of that money to fix it up. You then sale the property for X++ amount of money and put a nice profit into your pockets.
The Atlanta stadium was completed in 2017 so let's say a new stadium is completed in 2032 for opening day. Inflation and higher interest rates will likely cause the cost to be much higher than $722M. Also the current JC sales tax is for both teams and the Royals have stated the team doesn't want current taxpayers to pay more than they are now so I doubt that there would be a 1/2 cent sales tax for a baseball stadium. Won't get into the numbers for the Chiefs which I think are in the same fantasyland as for the Royals.
The big question mark is are the taxpayers willing to pass sales taxes for new stadiums for both teams? Given that it is likely a downtown stadium wouldn't be completed until 2032 it gives people plenty of time discuss the stadium plans for both teams.
The 425 m is half of the existing sales tax which is estimated to have generated $850m since enacting-so proposing flat renewal. I am not dealing in fantasyland but only going off the comps albeit few and far between which is all you can do to understand how the royals are trying to back into these figures.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by UMKC Roo »

Also this notion of the stadium opening in the 2030's is insane. John Sherman is 67 years old. I'm pretty sure he's not gonna wait a decade and risk dying or only enjoying his new stadium only for a couple years or so that he just put all this work into.

From a personal (age) & business standpoint he has every incentive to get this opened ASAP.
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