Downtown Baseball Stadium

[UMKCroo]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ify%20wall

Came across this, great read/watch if you are interested in the business of sports development. couldn’t help but see the stark contrast to the ownership groups we have in KC and how hapless both the chiefs and royals ownership looks. A bunch of rich guys who think just having a major sports franchise means they can have “a new shiny stadium” and all the development they see in other markets. Guess what, it takes work!

Say what you will about Khan, but the guy understands development, and is willing to do the negotiating and put up his money to back it up. I’m sure Sherman is well intentioned, but it’s clear they are in completely over their heads. I have hope for WSP, but it won’t be because of the royals, it will be despite them.

Don’t even get me started on the hunts. Imagine what we would have with a competent owner, and not a nepo baby. One of the best dynasties in the history of sports, and we get last aprils sad thrown together renderings. Jacksonville remodel for reference, and I’ll underscore the Jacksonville part. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jagu ... uture/amp/

[langosta]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ify%20wall

Came across this, great read/watch if you are interested in the business of sports development. couldn’t help but see the stark contrast to the ownership groups we have in KC and how hapless both the chiefs and royals ownership looks. A bunch of rich guys who think just having a major sports franchise means they can have “a new shiny stadium” and all the development they see in other markets. Guess what, it takes work!

Say what you will about Khan, but the guy understands development, and is willing to do the negotiating and put up his money to back it up. I’m sure Sherman is well intentioned, but it’s clear they are in completely over their heads. I have hope for WSP, but it won’t be because of the royals, it will be despite them.

Don’t even get me started on the hunts. Imagine what we would have with a competent owner, and not a nepo baby. One of the best dynasties in the history of sports, and we get last aprils sad thrown together renderings. Jacksonville remodel for reference, and I’ll underscore the Jacksonville part. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jagu ... uture/amp/

Im a little confused on what about Khans approach is better? He’s getting right under $1bn in construction and infrastructure costs paid for by the government out of existing capital budget and deferring pension payments

[UMKCroo]

The merits of using tax payer funded mechanisms to build sports stadiums is another (murky) conversation. The larger point here is that in order to get these deals done you have to interact with state and local governments at some level, all while building the public support. It's a complicated process that requires more than just shaking a cup to tax payers. It requires some level of proficiency or dare I even say expertise. There has been a certain level of arrogance shown through this process, but more than anything a deficiency of expertise in their ability to pull "it" off. It just kind of seems like the royals and chiefs are pointing at Battery park and AT&T stadium and saying, "yeah, we want that" The only problem is they don't know how to do it, they don't want to write the check, they can't work the process to make it happen, and they want it all for themselves rather than bringing in a competent developer. Those type of deals take city and state wide efforts over the course of years/decades, and the royals/chiefs tried to throw something together in 3 months.

[grovester]

The merits of using tax payer funded mechanisms to build sports stadiums is another (murky) conversation. The larger point here is that in order to get these deals done you have to interact with state and local governments at some level, all while building the public support. It's a complicated process that requires more than just shaking a cup to tax payers. It requires some level of proficiency or dare I even say expertise. There has been a certain level of arrogance shown through this process, but more than anything a deficiency of expertise in their ability to pull "it" off. It just kind of seems like the royals and chiefs are pointing at Battery park and AT&T stadium and saying, "yeah, we want that" The only problem is they don't know how to do it, they don't want to write the check, they can't work the process to make it happen, and they want it all for themselves rather than bringing in a competent developer. Those type of deals take city and state wide efforts over the course of years/decades, and the royals/chiefs tried to throw something together in 3 months.

^This is the most accurate description of the circumstances that I have heard to date.

[DColeKC]

The merits of using tax payer funded mechanisms to build sports stadiums is another (murky) conversation. The larger point here is that in order to get these deals done you have to interact with state and local governments at some level, all while building the public support. It's a complicated process that requires more than just shaking a cup to tax payers. It requires some level of proficiency or dare I even say expertise. There has been a certain level of arrogance shown through this process, but more than anything a deficiency of expertise in their ability to pull "it" off. It just kind of seems like the royals and chiefs are pointing at Battery park and AT&T stadium and saying, "yeah, we want that" The only problem is they don't know how to do it, they don't want to write the check, they can't work the process to make it happen, and they want it all for themselves rather than bringing in a competent developer. Those type of deals take city and state wide efforts over the course of years/decades, and the royals/chiefs tried to throw something together in 3 months.

I can see where you're coming from even though I disagree on certain parts. Khan actually had a deal with Cordish to build out a development in Lot J but that was turned down by the City Council, so he tried, failed and likely learned from that experience to move forward.

I think the Royals should have partnered with Cordish from the start, utilized their experience getting these things done across the country not only from working with local government but also working with local tax payers.

I personally think the Hunts are great owners. I think the renderings we saw were tossed together out of an effort to be polite to the Royals who thought they had a better chance of a winning vote with the Chiefs tied to it. The Hunts, specifically Clark Hunt has a long history with state officials, a great relationship and is highly respected in that scene. He wants money to help take Arrowhead to the next level, he's not actually interested in a brand new stadium despite him playing the game showing interest in every option as a way to hold local and state officials feet to the fire.

The Royals lead the last campaign, the Chiefs were willing but uninspired partners who didn't really care about the outcome. The Royals rushed things and screwed themselves from the start by not talking to Cordish sooner and releasing that insane multi-site let the public have input on them all campaign. They should have worked in the shadows, did all the work and revealed one site with many more details to the public for the feedback portion.

Both teams learned from the vote. The Royals are now working in the shadows. The Chiefs know they can get what they really want and now stand to get all the Jackson County money instead of sharing with the Royals.

Both of them can end up getting exactly what they wanted, despite the messy start.

[aknowledgeableperson]

We designed stadiums differently 20 years ago. That piece doesn’t hold much if any weight today.

Without going into too much detail can you explain the difference? I guess it would involve more than seating capacity, 42,000 is way too much seating, then and now.
Also, would that footprint from 20 years ago regarding field dimensions still be valid?

[Imarealperson]

They proved they couldn't play checkers during the lead up to the vote and his wife acted like a spoiled child after it failed. Let's not act like they know what en-passant is.

So they played poorly previously and now are forever incapable of executing a winning strategy? They're not able to learn from those past mistakes, re-group and get what they want?

People can change. You were willing to glue yourself to Oak Street to prevent it from being closed but now want Walnut closed from the river to the sea.

These streets are complete different and I actually haven't changed my view on either.

Oak is a major through street that is vital to moving traffic, it connected to midtown and crosses the to river. It isn't pedestrian friendly nor has as much potential. I'm still against closing it.

Walnut moves no traffic and doesn't leave downtown, and has buildings closer together with a skinner street creating a more human scale corridor. I've had the idea to close walnut for over a decade

Oak doesn’t move much of anything from Truman to 18th and probably further South. It’s one lane each direction with a turn lane, on street parking and tons of curb cuts. Plus it really doesn’t go to the river and probably less so than Locust.

[rxlexi]

We designed stadiums differently 20 years ago. That piece doesn’t hold much if any weight today.

Without going into too much detail can you explain the difference? I guess it would involve more than seating capacity, 42,000 is way too much seating, then and now.
Also, would that footprint from 20 years ago regarding field dimensions still be valid?

I'm assuming the reference is to the physical size of modern stadiums vs. seating capacity. Field dimensions and capacity remain (roughly) the same, but the concourses, the amenity spaces, the back of house stuff like locker rooms, press suites, and so on are larger than 20-30 years ago.

[UMKCroo]

Both teams learned from the vote. The Royals are now working in the shadows. The Chiefs know they can get what they really want and now stand to get all the Jackson County money instead of sharing with the Royals.

Both of them can end up getting exactly what they wanted, despite the messy start.

Anything is possible, and I am hoping for the best, but from all of the information I have received the Royals are still essentially on the sidelines. They have seen the WSP proposal, but as of last week still don't have a point person working on WSP or any location. I personally don't get the feeling they have learned the right lessons, if any.

I don't want to imply that I think the Chiefs/Royals are in any way not capable organizations. Winning a Super Bowl is one of the hardest things in sports. The Chiefs have done it 3 out of 4 years, incredibly impressive. In general, pro sports are very difficult, highly competitive, and multi-faceted beasts. What I do think is that there is absolutely zero correlation, despite what they might think, between running a pro sports team and completing complicated multi-billion dollar real estate development projects. If anything I think their success on the field has probably hurt the process because I am sure it comes with a certain degree of over-confidence rather than the humbleness (and industry specific expertise!) that should accompany a project of this complexity.

Hunt is a good owner in the sense that they win. But he has been a terrible community member if you ask me. I know it's not un-common for NFL owners to live outside the community, but I'll just never get over it. Considering how much value this franchise adds to his family's fortune, The hunt family name should be all over every building in the city - up there with the Kaufmann's, blochs, halls, kempers, Helzbergs etc. In reality the hunt family fortune dwarfs these other families and they are relatively non-existent in the community. Kudos to Sherman for living here, mixing it up in the community, and being quite generous with his comparatively much smaller fortune.

[TheUrbanRoo]

^There's no way the Royals sitting on the sidelines doing nothing. They might be giving off that impression but there's no chance. They're in the latter half of 2024 with a lease ending after 2030. They're got a playoff team they can leverage now. I guarantee they're making moves and working even if they're not saying it. Mayor said look for something in several weeks.

[Cratedigger]

^There's no way the Royals sitting on the sidelines doing nothing. They might be giving off that impression but there's no chance. They're in the latter half of 2024 with a lease ending after 2030. They're got a playoff team they can leverage now. I guarantee they're making moves and working even if they're not saying it. Mayor said look for something in several weeks.

One would hope

[smh]

^There's no way the Royals sitting on the sidelines doing nothing. They might be giving off that impression but there's no chance. They're in the latter half of 2024 with a lease ending after 2030. They're got a playoff team they can leverage now. I guarantee they're making moves and working even if they're not saying it. Mayor said look for something in several weeks.

I think this is true. As was said awhile back, I think it all hinged on the August GOP primary. With that having had a successful (in the eyes of the project) outcome now surely it is full steam ahead.

[langosta]

What’s the plan for the WSp site regarding the parcel owned by the Federal Government?

[GRID]

Renderings by 3D Development / BNIM:

https://www.welovekcbaseball.com/

[KCMax]

From the KC Biz journal:

The concepts depict an asymmetrical Royals stadium that would fit within the two properties' boundaries. Wullschleger said a potential "road diet," removing some of Grand Boulevard's multiple lanes to the east, could further increase the site's footprint. The proposal also includes a pedestrian bridge, connecting a ballpark north across railroad tracks to the Crossroads, where the Royals could pursue a mixed-use ballpark district on properties within 3D's planned Freight House Village area.

The site offers unparalleled transportation access, advocates say. Beyond its proximity to the streetcar and Union Station, the site is within four blocks of 18,903 existing or planned parking spaces, including many in Crown Center's nearby garages. There are nine highways within a nine-block radius and a convergence of eight four-lane roadways surrounding the site.

Also say it will be cheaper than the Crossroads location due to land assemblage.

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... lpark.html

[DColeKC]

Of course Vince Bryant got involved in this somehow. He can't finish any of his projects and could stumble into this.

[langosta]

From the KC Biz journal:

The concepts depict an asymmetrical Royals stadium that would fit within the two properties' boundaries. Wullschleger said a potential "road diet," removing some of Grand Boulevard's multiple lanes to the east, could further increase the site's footprint. The proposal also includes a pedestrian bridge, connecting a ballpark north across railroad tracks to the Crossroads, where the Royals could pursue a mixed-use ballpark district on properties within 3D's planned Freight House Village area.

The site offers unparalleled transportation access, advocates say. Beyond its proximity to the streetcar and Union Station, the site is within four blocks of 18,903 existing or planned parking spaces, including many in Crown Center's nearby garages. There are nine highways within a nine-block radius and a convergence of eight four-lane roadways surrounding the site.

Also say it will be cheaper than the Crossroads location due to land assemblage.

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... lpark.html

How about the Feds owned parcel??

[GRID]

It's mentioned in this video that the Royals are working with KS behind the scenes. "Royals are very interested"...

Hopefully they are just "looking" and they ultimately choose downtown but I still have a gut feeling that the Royals could end up in some JoCo project and the Chiefs renovate (worst case for both teams).

Mentions the Royals are further along with KS than the Chiefs who are still leaning towards renovation. Although the Chiefs have recently told Jackson County that they may not be that interested in a vote this fall. So who knows.

https://fox4kc.com/politics/4-the-peopl ... X0LW9PAPHA

[Chris Stritzel]

It’s possible for them to negotiate with multiple entities. Whether it’s KCMO, North KC or the State of Kansas, each site has potential upsides and downsides. They’ll assess each accordingly. This effort by Vince Bryant is smart in the way that messaging about Washington Square Park can begin before any formal announcement. Hit on the benefits of the site. Get ahead of any opposition in a way. Great to see the graphics hitting on parking, streetcar, streets, highways and the absence of businesses on site that would be displaced. These are all things that need to be hit on.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

From the KC Biz journal:

The concepts depict an asymmetrical Royals stadium that would fit within the two properties' boundaries. Wullschleger said a potential "road diet," removing some of Grand Boulevard's multiple lanes to the east, could further increase the site's footprint. The proposal also includes a pedestrian bridge, connecting a ballpark north across railroad tracks to the Crossroads, where the Royals could pursue a mixed-use ballpark district on properties within 3D's planned Freight House Village area.

The site offers unparalleled transportation access, advocates say. Beyond its proximity to the streetcar and Union Station, the site is within four blocks of 18,903 existing or planned parking spaces, including many in Crown Center's nearby garages. There are nine highways within a nine-block radius and a convergence of eight four-lane roadways surrounding the site.

Also say it will be cheaper than the Crossroads location due to land assemblage.

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... lpark.html

How about the Feds owned parcel??

The little jut on the NW edge that is part of Amtrak? Probably just build around it worst case, best case incorporate it into the design and leverage the US platforms to then flow straight into the stadium area