Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
TheUrbanRoo
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

Cratedigger wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:42 am https://twitter.com/SportsRadio810/stat ... 29568?s=20

5 minutes of Sherman talking about the new ballpark. Mentions infrastructure investment in additional highway capacity possibly needed, more parking likely not needed, and that the process would move in step with the Chiefs
Wow, they continue to be really smart on parking.

I haven't heard the Royals clamoring for parking and talking about it during this whole campaign. They seem to be very aware how much parking there already is available downtown.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by phuqueue »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:47 am Is it a truck load of public money when they’re only asking for an extension of the current stadium tax at this point though? If that’s what they stick too, it seems a fairly reasonable request.
They haven't put forward any sort of detailed plan yet, so we don't really know what they're asking for. They keep saying that it's going to be a $2 billion project and they're going to put "at least" $1 billion into it. I mean, you can read a lot into "at least" if you want, but I have a feeling if "at least" meant they were actually looking at putting in, say, $1.5 billion, they'd be pushing the $1.5 billion number instead, so it feels pretty safe to assume they are planning to cover only about half the cost of the project. So if they're looking for a billion dollars in public money, then yeah, I'd call that a truckload, regardless of the funding mechanism (but I strongly suspect it won't be just the existing stadium tax, which isn't going to raise $1 billion for the Royals alone). In the article bfa posted a few weeks ago, they don't commit to asking for no public money in excess of the existing tax, they just say they won't seek more money from Jackson County taxpayers. The city or state are presumably fair game (though I doubt the state will be willing to kick anything in). I don't recall seeing any other quote where they are less equivocal about taking additional public money, and I'm not going to go hunt for one myself, but I'm happy to be proven wrong if you have one handy. They are also going to ask the city, state, and possibly even feds to pay for infrastructure upgrades (not included in the $2 billion price tag), and although some infrastructure upgrades are probably overdue anyway (especially if it's the EV site), we are probably looking at more extensive (and expensive) upgrades to support a baseball stadium than would be needed if one weren't there. Just because we wouldn't ordinarily expect a baseball team to finance a new highway ramp or something themselves doesn't mean we shouldn't consider the cost of that highway ramp as a public subsidy to the team, if the team is the one who needs it there in the first place.

In any case, even if they only maintained the current stadium tax with no additional public money, they're still getting hundreds of millions of public dollars from that. They're public dollars that we don't necessarily miss, because we're already paying them anyway, and you can split hairs over how many hundreds of millions of dollars constitute a "truckload" if you want, but fundamentally my question is why the public should continue to invest in an organization that isn't willing to invest in itself.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by GRID »

beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:49 am First, tell me how we’re a small market and St. Louis isn’t?
I am just guessing here, but the Cards have a MUCH larger regional and national fan base and way more corporate support than the Royals ever have or will. That leads to better TV deals, more corporate season tickets, more suite utilization and just more revenue in general.

So while the StL market is not much larger than the KC market, the team seems to function more like a bigger market. I'm not sure there is a bigger baseball town than StL per capita. Boston is probably a distant second. Maybe Milwaukee simply because they can draw 30k a night for an average team in the smallest market in MLB.

One of KC's biggest problems is the fans don't really show up, even when the team is doing relatively well. It took being the best team in MLB all year long for KC to draw 33k a game and attendance dropped like a rock while the team was still relatively competitive after 2015. I mean what would you do if you were the Royals? I would probably take the safe route too.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by beautyfromashes »

GRID wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:47 pm I am just guessing here, but the Cards have a MUCH larger regional and national fan base and way more corporate support than the Royals ever have or will. That leads to better TV deals, more corporate season tickets, more suite utilization and just more revenue in general.
So, market really has nothing to do with it. The Cardinals have a history of winning and have created a culture that loves the team and returns the support for success. Seems the Royals can't blame some fuzzy excuse then, except for that they've not created the same culture. If St. Louis can build an every-year winner here in the Midwest with a solid fanbase and significant season tickets sold, then the Royals can be expected to do the same and not fall on some magical "small market" sword year after year.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by smh »

beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:07 pm
GRID wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:47 pm I am just guessing here, but the Cards have a MUCH larger regional and national fan base and way more corporate support than the Royals ever have or will. That leads to better TV deals, more corporate season tickets, more suite utilization and just more revenue in general.
So, market really has nothing to do with it. The Cardinals have a history of winning and have created a culture that loves the team and returns the support for success. Seems the Royals can't blame some fuzzy excuse then, except for that they've not created the same culture. If St. Louis can build an every-year winner here in the Midwest with a solid fanbase and significant season tickets sold, then the Royals can be expected to do the same and not fall on some magical "small market" sword year after year.
Well we're talking "market" as in market for the product versus like MSA or something.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by dukuboy1 »

It's the tradition and culture of winning for sure. I mean the Cards had a 60 year or so head start on the Royals and were the only MLB West of the Mississippi until the Dodgers & then Giants moved to CA in the 1950's. Baseball was the East Coast in the major cities and STL was the Western outpost. So There are generations of Cards fans in the Mid-West because they were here and good. That brings a huge radio/media presence and all kinds of sponsorship and advertising revenue. But the key is you have to win. The support and the money starts with that winning tradition and culture.

I can't stand the Cards and I'm a take or leave when it comes to STL in general. But I respect the winning the Cards have done and the HOF'ers they have produced over the years. But that winning keeps the machine churning.

The Browns were a MLB team in STL but lacked the support because they did not win likes the Cards, so they left. STL lost 2 NFL Teams, NBA, team mostly because of not having the winning culture and support. The Rams deal was a shitty owner that went on a money grab when the NFL backed up a truck of money to get them to come to LA. But even so outside of the good years, the team lacked solid support and not usual for a team that relocated to chase money and then left again to chase money.

But you are 100% spot on. Unless Sherman and his team can start winning and sustain it and re-develop that winning culture all this discussion becomes moot IMO. We saw in 2013, 2014, 2105, that this city is still nuts for the Royals and love that team like no other in town. Chiefs have passed them by for sure but the love is there just waiting to pour out again. But they need to see results, from Owner to the field. Build us a winner and the KC is your oyster. Fumble around and you'll have an uphill battle
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by WoodDraw »

Tanking has been one of the more terrible things to enter into baseball as well. Just to be as awful as possible to try to save money and get cheap players and hope it all comes together.

I'll have up and down years, but I'm not going to watch or go to the stadium to watch a group that has no interest in winning.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by shinatoo »

beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:07 pm
GRID wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:47 pm I am just guessing here, but the Cards have a MUCH larger regional and national fan base and way more corporate support than the Royals ever have or will. That leads to better TV deals, more corporate season tickets, more suite utilization and just more revenue in general.
So, market really has nothing to do with it. The Cardinals have a history of winning and have created a culture that loves the team and returns the support for success. Seems the Royals can't blame some fuzzy excuse then, except for that they've not created the same culture. If St. Louis can build an every-year winner here in the Midwest with a solid fanbase and significant season tickets sold, then the Royals can be expected to do the same and not fall on some magical "small market" sword year after year.
It also helps that they had an 87-year head start on building a fan base over the Royals. And most of that time they were one of the largest markets in the US. And most of that time they had radio coverage for everything south and west of them. Momentum is helpful.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Highlander »

shinatoo wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:56 pm
beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:07 pm
GRID wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:47 pm I am just guessing here, but the Cards have a MUCH larger regional and national fan base and way more corporate support than the Royals ever have or will. That leads to better TV deals, more corporate season tickets, more suite utilization and just more revenue in general.
So, market really has nothing to do with it. The Cardinals have a history of winning and have created a culture that loves the team and returns the support for success. Seems the Royals can't blame some fuzzy excuse then, except for that they've not created the same culture. If St. Louis can build an every-year winner here in the Midwest with a solid fanbase and significant season tickets sold, then the Royals can be expected to do the same and not fall on some magical "small market" sword year after year.
It also helps that they had an 87-year head start on building a fan base over the Royals. And most of that time they were one of the largest markets in the US. And most of that time they had radio coverage for everything south and west of them. Momentum is helpful.
I was just typing a post to say the same thing. I have relatives in Tulsa that are lifelong Cards fans because their parents were and their grandparents were long before the Royals and the Texas Rangers were created. They were the only show in town for many years. And it probably doesn't hurt that the NFL is no longer in St Louis to compete with the Cards although the Cards did well when the NFL was there.

I know I am far more likely to attend a Royals game than a Chiefs game and would even be more likely to attend at a downtown stadium. It's a far less expensive endeavor in generally far more pleasant weather. I love the vibe of a baseball game on a hot summer evening.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by beautyfromashes »

shinatoo wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:56 pm It also helps that they had an 87-year head start on building a fan base over the Royals. Momentum is helpful.
I've heard this argument for awhile too. If you can't build a quality organization and fanbase in 50+ years, something's wrong. But, this is what the dialogue always is with the Royals. For some reason the small fanbase there is has gotten so accustomed to excuses that they start to accept it. "We're a small market team." "We haven't been around that long." "This is a football town." "Uh, it's the Yankees fault."
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by shinatoo »

beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:44 pm
shinatoo wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:56 pm It also helps that they had an 87-year head start on building a fan base over the Royals. Momentum is helpful.
I've heard this argument for awhile too. If you can't build a quality organization and fanbase in 50+ years, something's wrong. But, this is what the dialogue always is with the Royals. For some reason the small fanbase there is has gotten so accustomed to excuses that they start to accept it. "We're a small market team." "We haven't been around that long." "This is a football town." "Uh, it's the Yankees fault."
You're not wrong, but there are obstacles that the Royals have to overcome that Legacy and Large Market teams don't have to. Especially with the success the Cardinals have had, specifically in the 60s and 70s and 80s and 90s and 2000s, and 2010s.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KC_JAYHAWK »

Royals also drew a lot of fans from Western KS/Eastern CO before the Rockies came to Denver. A lot of those folks are now Rockies fans.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by beautyfromashes »

Probably should take this discussion to the Royals section and leave this for Downtown stadium talk. Apologizes for my part in the misdirection.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by alejandro46 »

So I get the reaction regarding the "widening" East loop to facilitate auto travel to the stadium.

However, if we can utilize the stadium as a catalyst to bury or in some way narrow the East Loop and the 70/71/35 interchange I'm 100% in favor of it. In addition, merging down to 1 lane to take 29/35 north is a big bottleneck. In addition, some of the on-ramps are much too short and dangerous. Getting rid of the N Loop solves a lot of issues too.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

I think everyone is missing one of the biggest nuggets in Sherman's words which is he's basically saying they hardly are gonna add any parking. The Royals know there's really no need. That was prob my biggest fear of this whole project.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by dukuboy1 »

If making improvements in tandem to new stadium for the the East loop and allowing you to remove the North Loop that would be great. The East & North Loops have too many wonky on ramps. Obviously if the North loop was removed and turned into a more traditional street grid that may help traffic flow from say just traditional off ramps. But really removing the North loops and revamping the East loop would be great. I believe they have enough room to completely re-imagine the East Loop with removing some wonky ramps and replacing them with better through lanes, Flyovers, etc. to help eliminate the bottle necks you hit now.

Yes it will effect the Paseo West area and cut it of via the highway, but unless you are tunneling it will always be a problem. However if done right it can work. I mean we do not see a lot of suffering In STL when 64 splits through their metro. The highway is nice, especially with the lanes & aesthetics of overpasses, etc. But you see bustling development on either side.

So if the stadium can help move along those efforts that would be an additional perk of moving downtown.
TheUrbanRoo
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

dukuboy1 wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:56 pm If making improvements in tandem to new stadium for the the East loop and allowing you to remove the North Loop that would be great.
I keep seeing the North Loop invoked in the Royals/East loop situation but why do people think this could help set the North Loop up for removal?
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by langosta »

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Last edited by langosta on Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
TheUrbanRoo
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

The city needs to think ahead then and realize that needs to apart of any highway altering plan. I think urbanists could get on board with another lane if they setup the north loop during this Royals phase. Someone has got to ask this at the next Q & A meeting.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by daGOAT »

The 71 has room for extra lanes if they carve into the grass and just give a modern retaining wall, similar to the 35 thru Fort Worth or the 110 in South Los Angeles. But I think it's an ideal candidate for LRT and that option should be explored as well. Maybe both are possible.
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