KCRag Forum

phuqueue wrote: Right, but the reason anyone cares what they have to say enough to buy their book or pay them to speak is their position as a minister. I suppose these are technically discrete revenue streams but they're all bound up together.

Which is no different than a TV personality hawking a book or two. Or a pol or sports figure.

aknowledgeableperson wrote:

phuqueue wrote: Right, but the reason anyone cares what they have to say enough to buy their book or pay them to speak is their position as a minister. I suppose these are technically discrete revenue streams but they're all bound up together.

Which is no different than a TV personality hawking a book or two. Or a pol or sports figure.

Right, except for the obvious difference that those professions have nothing to do with the Scripture.

Let's separate the seller of the product (minister, ball player, TV personality) from the buyer of the product.

Yes, a rich minister does seem to conflict with the word being preached but for many of the supporters they do not see the conflict. For me those millionaire ministers are no different than an inner-city minister wearing expensive suits and driving new luxury cars but those types are a minority of the profession. I know a few ministers who work 40 hour weeks on a job and then spend a lot of time on church business.

Of course you might look at the purchaser of that product as being a sucker but what about those who spend hundreds of dollars buying tickets to support millionaire team owners and players or rich musicians who rail against the capitalistic system they benefit from.

As usual, akp is about a million miles away from the point

offended since you are the one buying tickets to watch grown men playing a kids game?

“This ‘closing off’ that imagines that those outside, everyone, cannot do good is a wall that leads to war and also to what some people throughout history have conceived of: killing in the name of God. That we can kill in the name of God. And that, simply, is blasphemy. To say that you can kill in the name of God is blasphemy … The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! …

We all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there,

-Pope Francis

Amen.

I appreciate being included in being redeemed by the blood of Christ, I guess, but if I were a muslim I might be rather annoyed with the idea.

mean wrote:I appreciate being included in being redeemed by the blood of Christ, I guess, but if I were a muslim I might be rather annoyed with the idea.

I wouldn't.
Even if I didn't believe in what the guy says, I see no fault in the belief. I would keep on believing that my way is the right way to salvation, and, so long as I'm a decent person, the other guy is not condemning me to damnation for not subscribing to his theology. Win-win.

Really, the only people who should be pissed off are "my way or HELLFIRE!!!" fundies. And they are pissed-off anyways so screw 'em.

I'm not saying I can't personally get behind a rah-rah-believe-whatever-you-want philosophy, but when one's perception of reality is shaped by the belief that one guy a couple thousand years ago was The Prophet, it's not exactly hard to understand why they might get a little miffed when someone comes along and says (arguably rather condescendingly), "Oh, no, it's OK. Your guy wasn't the Prophet and your entire belief system is wrong, but it's ok because my guy (the real Prophet) loves you!"

mean wrote:I'm not saying I can't personally get behind a rah-rah-believe-whatever-you-want philosophy, but when one's perception of reality is shaped by the belief that one guy a couple thousand years ago was The Prophet, it's not exactly hard to understand why they might get a little miffed when someone comes along and says (arguably rather condescendingly), "Oh, no, it's OK. Your guy wasn't the Prophet and your entire belief system is wrong, but it's ok because my guy (the real Prophet) loves you!"

Well, many *insert region*-ians do that anyways, except without the universalist view on salvation.

It's still better than, "Your guy wasn't the Prophet, but you're alright... Even though you are still going to Hell", significantly better than that annoying guy with the bullhorn on the sidewalk corner, and loads better than, "DIE INFIDEL!!! *kaboom*".

If a person's so entrenched in their belief that they are to be miffed about this message, they are going to be miffed regardless of what's said.

Not sure where you got any of that from the quote.

"My imaginary friend is better than yours because mine loves everyone and yours condemns everyone who doesn't believe, except mine also condemns everyone who doesn't believe before he doesn't, but then he changes his mind later, and by the way, let's ignore the whole contradiction that comes with God changing his mind about anything ever."

Mmkay.

mean wrote:I appreciate being included in being redeemed by the blood of Christ, I guess, but if I were a muslim I might be rather annoyed with the idea.

Maybe, maybe not. If I have my beliefs, and you have yours, a third person his, a fourth person hers, and so on but we are committed to do good with each other what is wrong with that? Tolerance is what should govern us. And I have been around a few Muslims though work and other means and as far as I know of they have no secret hate towards me because of my beliefs. I didn't condemn them nor they I. I respected their holy days and they did mine (will include the Jews here also).

mean wrote:"My imaginary friend is better than yours because mine loves everyone and yours condemns everyone who doesn't believe, except mine also condemns everyone who doesn't believe before he doesn't, but then he changes his mind later, and by the way, let's ignore the whole contradiction that comes with God changing his mind about anything ever."

Mmkay.

You're paranoid.

aknowledgeableperson wrote:

mean wrote:I appreciate being included in being redeemed by the blood of Christ, I guess, but if I were a muslim I might be rather annoyed with the idea.

Maybe, maybe not. If I have my beliefs, and you have yours, a third person his, a fourth person hers, and so on but we are committed to do good with each other what is wrong with that? Tolerance is what should govern us. And I have been around a few Muslims though work and other means and as far as I know of they have no secret hate towards me because of my beliefs. I didn't condemn them nor they I. I respected their holy days and they did mine (will include the Jews here also).

There is nothing wrong with that. I'm just questioning whether it is realistic as long as there are hardcore fundamentalists of whatever stripe.

grovester wrote:

mean wrote:"My imaginary friend is better than yours because mine loves everyone and yours condemns everyone who doesn't believe, except mine also condemns everyone who doesn't believe before he doesn't, but then he changes his mind later, and by the way, let's ignore the whole contradiction that comes with God changing his mind about anything ever."

Mmkay.

You're paranoid.

I'm not paranoid, I'm just trying to illustrate why the idea of everyone loving each other is a bit naive in reality. When people believe in the literal truth of silly ancient texts written by barbaric warring tribes, it's going to be a challenge for them to get along in civilized modern society.

I appreciate the fact that the quote comes pretty close to admitting that their way may not be the only path.

I'm just questioning whether it is realistic as long as there are hardcore fundamentalists of whatever stripe.

This imperfect world is made up of many different types of people. Are there always going to be fundamentalists? Yes, much like the extremes in different political parties just because we are humans. Accept it. But there is a big majority of us that are not fundamentalists, we care about our beliefs but accept that others can have different beliefs.
People go around doing harm to others for reasons other than religion. Do you have strong feelings about that like you do religion?

I'm not paranoid, I'm just trying to illustrate why the idea of everyone loving each other is a bit naive in reality. When people believe in the literal truth of silly ancient texts written by barbaric warring tribes, it's going to be a challenge for them to get along in civilized modern society.

Don't most of us get along? Yes, many are killed in the name of religion but you almost sound like we are just a moment away from killing each other. You may or may not be paranoid buy it sure sounds to me you have a deep fear of Muslims or at least how people of different faiths get along. Believe it or not a very large majority of us get along just fine, even with our beliefs in silly ancient different texts.

Religion is for suckers and con men.

Like the billboard sez, Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.

Crazed Muslim convert in London kill soldier then runs up to camera wielding bystander and tells the world he did the deed because Westerner's are killing Muslim's over in the sandbox. I suppose that's a good enough reason to kill someone, but I kinda wonder how he missed the fact that Muslim's are killing other Muslim's over there at a much higher rate than the Westerner's are.

Religion is just a well organized way to put other people's money in your pocket while paying no taxes.

I like to go straight to the source. Which is why I follow God on Facebook and Twitter. I also follow Jesus M. and Jesus H. Christ on Twitter. They're much funnier when their words aren't filtered through humans.

They also cuss a lot, but are way cooler than Joel Osteen thinks he is.

grovester wrote:Not sure where you got any of that from the quote.

This. Misses the entire point of the quote entirely.

Got this from God today.