KCRag Forum

mean wrote:contrary to what people from KC seem to think, sauce is not what makes BBQ.

In the 15 years I've lived here, I have yet to meet a single person who thinks that.

BBQ is about slow smoked meats, not really sauce. Putting BBQ sauce on packaged meat doesn't make it BBQ.

Many BBQ purists in KC do think sauce is secondary and if slow smoked with rub 'properly', sauce is unnecessary. Is occasionally debated in foodie circles I've been around - if it requires sauce, it wasn't smoked/rubbed right.. But even to purist snobs sauce is still acceptable and its own artform, more acceptable than steak sauce to steak purists - steak sauce insults a good quality piece of meat.

And KC of course doesn't have one style of sauce. Molasses style is often pointed out but there are countless variations in KC. I've picked up a wide variety of sauce in City Market over the years from Caribbean influenced to Mexican to Brazilian to Asian influenced sauces.

Just last night we did smoked brisket with this SE Asian influenced BBQ sauce. Great with ribs too. The rice vinegar/ginger/lime juice give it a nice zip. But the brisket was rubbed/smoked just right (lime/chipotle rub) so it didn't really need the sauce, didn't hurt though. Served with cilantro/sun-dried tomato/jasmine rice.

2tbpn garlic
2 tbspn minced ginger
1/2c ketchup
1/3c lime juice (2+ large lime)
1/3c rice vgr
1/4c hoisan sauce
1/4c green mountain soy (start with less, taste to liking)
1/2 tspn red pepper flakes
2tbs chopped cilantro
2tsp sesame seed oil

Most people equate KC BBQ to what local restaurants do but the scene is magnitudes beyond, especially with fusion experimentation.

As a transplant to Texas, I can tell you the BBQ here is spotty and mostly not good. It's also a colossal scam. The latest fiasco was at a new spot in Downtown Austin called Cooper's. Looked cool, great outdoor patio. First, most TX bbq places entice you to walk by a grill and choose what you want. Then it's weighed and priced so high Ruth's Chris would be embarrassed. So I picked 2 thick slices of brisket and 2 ribs. They then dip it in a salt bath in a giant kettle for 2 reasons: 1) it weighs more 2) it's dry from sitting on grill so it brings some moisture back. Then they weigh it behind the counter and wrap it in paper. The total with 2 small sides and a coke - $38! Yes, $38 for salty crap bbq. I was in shock when the register girl gave me the total. Texas bbq is this odd weigh 'n pay scam that should be outlawed.

The ribs were so tough I couldn't eat them. The brisket was so salty/fatty it was bad. I got a small side of Jalepeno mac n cheese (horrible, way too spicy) and mucky berry cobbler that was a hardened mess. Black's bbq in Austin is about the same. BBQ should not be this expensive or this bad. Dunking meat in a salt bath is a crime.

Downtowner wrote:As a transplant to Texas, I can tell you the BBQ here is spotty and mostly not good. It's also a colossal scam. The latest fiasco was at a new spot in Downtown Austin called Cooper's. Looked cool, great outdoor patio. First, most TX bbq places entice you to walk by a grill and choose what you want. Then it's weighed and priced so high Ruth's Chris would be embarrassed. So I picked 2 thick slices of brisket and 2 ribs. They then dip it in a salt bath in a giant kettle for 2 reasons: 1) it weighs more 2) it's dry from sitting on grill so it brings some moisture back. Then they weigh it behind the counter and wrap it in paper. The total with 2 small sides and a coke - $38! Yes, $38 for salty crap bbq. I was in shock when the register girl gave me the total. Texas bbq is this odd weigh 'n pay scam that should be outlawed.

The ribs were so tough I couldn't eat them. The brisket was so salty/fatty it was bad. I got a small side of Jalepeno mac n cheese (horrible, way too spicy) and mucky berry cobbler that was a hardened mess. Black's bbq in Austin is about the same. BBQ should not be this expensive or this bad. Dunking meat in a salt bath is a crime.

I'm in Austin quite a bit because both my kids are at UT. Have you been to Franklins? I've never wanted to make the investment in time as one can wait for hours. We will from time to time hit Lockhart on the way back to Houston and we experience essentially the same thing - they weigh the meat and charge by the pound and its generally pretty dried out. There's a definite atmospheric difference between Texas and KC bbq joints - the communal tables in Texas, Bottled Beer on ice, I can't remember seeing table service anywhere - cafeteria setting only , no onion rings or fries served, etc....

For what it's worth, the guy that runs Franklins has a BBQ show on one of the PBS sub-channels. Interesting stuff, and he made it up to KC for a competition, where he finished in the middle of the pack iirc.

http://www.pbs.org/food/features/bbq-wi ... mpetition/

Downtowner wrote:As a transplant to Texas, I can tell you the BBQ here is spotty and mostly not good. It's also a colossal scam. The latest fiasco was at a new spot in Downtown Austin called Cooper's. Looked cool, great outdoor patio. First, most TX bbq places entice you to walk by a grill and choose what you want. Then it's weighed and priced so high Ruth's Chris would be embarrassed. So I picked 2 thick slices of brisket and 2 ribs. They then dip it in a salt bath in a giant kettle for 2 reasons: 1) it weighs more 2) it's dry from sitting on grill so it brings some moisture back. Then they weigh it behind the counter and wrap it in paper. The total with 2 small sides and a coke - $38! Yes, $38 for salty crap bbq. I was in shock when the register girl gave me the total. Texas bbq is this odd weigh 'n pay scam that should be outlawed.

The ribs were so tough I couldn't eat them. The brisket was so salty/fatty it was bad. I got a small side of Jalepeno mac n cheese (horrible, way too spicy) and mucky berry cobbler that was a hardened mess. Black's bbq in Austin is about the same. BBQ should not be this expensive or this bad. Dunking meat in a salt bath is a crime.

I'd be pissed too, you should write a review. They currently have 4 stars on Yelp and 4.8 on facebook.

"Many BBQ purists in KC do think sauce is secondary"

If you are just eating the meat I would agree. About the only time I am eating just meat is when I have burnt ends or ribs. Most of the time though I am eating a sandwich and with the bread does come the sauce and pickles. Eating BBQ that way may be offensive to the purists but I just happen to like sandwiches, usually ham and brisket. And with the sandwich comes the beans and fries.

Downtowner wrote:As a transplant to Texas, I can tell you the BBQ here is spotty and mostly not good. It's also a colossal scam. The latest fiasco was at a new spot in Downtown Austin called Cooper's. Looked cool, great outdoor patio. First, most TX bbq places entice you to walk by a grill and choose what you want. Then it's weighed and priced so high Ruth's Chris would be embarrassed. So I picked 2 thick slices of brisket and 2 ribs. They then dip it in a salt bath in a giant kettle for 2 reasons: 1) it weighs more 2) it's dry from sitting on grill so it brings some moisture back. Then they weigh it behind the counter and wrap it in paper. The total with 2 small sides and a coke - $38! Yes, $38 for salty crap bbq. I was in shock when the register girl gave me the total. Texas bbq is this odd weigh 'n pay scam that should be outlawed.

The ribs were so tough I couldn't eat them. The brisket was so salty/fatty it was bad. I got a small side of Jalepeno mac n cheese (horrible, way too spicy) and mucky berry cobbler that was a hardened mess. Black's bbq in Austin is about the same. BBQ should not be this expensive or this bad. Dunking meat in a salt bath is a crime.

that reminds me of the trendy bbq places popping up in chicago. it's so annoying.

shinatoo wrote:Ate at Fargo's in Beaumont TX. a couple of weeks ago. Beff ribs were fantastic, the rub really set them off. The sauce was unremarkable, very umami, like ketchup. I think Kansas Citians are much more open to other regions because we are so willing to try to cook anything ourselves. Lots of closed mindedness in Texas, Carolinas and Memphis.

yeah, that's why i think that kc is the best bbq town. memphis is freakin' annoying...sticky sweet sauce splattered on everything, and the far southeast is just plain stuck up about bbq being a "southern" thing. im less familiar with texas, but it seems more like the kc approach, maybe.

I watched a few episodes of a BBQ contest show before I realized it was crazy formulaic false drama with some BBQ and a best restaurant show where they sometimes covered BBQ places.

Great BBQ restaurant in Memphis? Guy willing contests in Texas? They mention KC as an influence. Repeat over and over.

longviewmo wrote:For what it's worth, the guy that runs Franklins has a BBQ show on one of the PBS sub-channels. Interesting stuff, and he made it up to KC for a competition, where he finished in the middle of the pack iirc.

http://www.pbs.org/food/features/bbq-wi ... mpetition/

I remember watching this one, Franklin was talking to that one guy about tips and he mentioned that they mainly just care about the sauces in KC BBQ competitions, this is kind of why i brought it up

The way I'd put it is that most purists in KC focus on the smoking, slow cooking technique and some focus on sauces. They are two separate and valid artforms but I agree with those who think sauce is secondary. The BBQ process of smoking/slow cooking existed before sauces, which are just a condiment that came later. And some rely too much on it - like depending on sauce to give meat smokey flavor, which most purists would say is lame and lazy. I personally like experimenting with sauces, but the smoking/slow cooking technique takes precedence. Sauce can save my own poor job of smoking or meat didn't turn out as expected, which happens at times - is freakin hard to be consistent.

As mentioned before, putting BBQ sauce on packaged meat doesn't make it BBQ.

I've never considered just smoked meat to be BBQ either. Got to have both.

Sauce has its place but the purist response would be... automatically putting sauce on BBQ'd meat is like putting salt on your food before tasting it. IBM used to have this weird policy that they would not hire someone who would salt their food at a restaurant in an interview before tasting. Is a sign of not checking the situation before reacting - reject.

You're often not going to get top shelf BBQ at a restaurant so sauce might matter more. By top shelf I don't mean $ but by knowledge of how slow cooked/smoked meat works and taking the time. A friend of mine is a BBQ queen. She can take the cheapest meats from Save A Lot and turn into gold - usually without a sauce. BBQ came from low income people who turned crap meat into voodoo magic (before BBQ sauces existed). She's half native American, half Mexican and half Cajun but views herself as pure KC - no I got the math right. She's learned every slow cook/smoked method on many different layers, including deep pit coaling pork wrapped in banana leaves. The brisket I mentioned above post was the cheapest brisket in SunFresh bargain bin and she touched it with her wand.

The trick is trimming to just the right amount of fat to mix with the rub (more important than sauce) and developing a process. Sauce is completely unnecessary if done right because the melted fat/rub is the sauce. And I don't like fatty meats. When melted right, you don't notice there was fat. But then again, sauce is fine to cover up the situation when needed as top shelf BBQ is difficult to pull off consistently, especially in a restaurant.

Or if you just like sauce and don't care about how meat is prepared, that's cool too. I like salt at times and I like sauce, but only when needed.

Wow, it is possible to take all the fun out of BBQ.

Maybe, but there is a BBQ alternate universe in KC that takes it up a few notches beyond the mainstream. Some appreciate it, some could care less - is called a culture and KC's got it goin on. I've learned alot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsqsQVzqiis

Even the best sauce, no matter what kind, can mask a piece of meat not prepared or smoked properly. But much like a seasoning it can compliment the item it is on. So one loves the meat without a sauce. No one is saying you can't enjoy it that way. If one loves the meat with a taste of a sauce they love then more power to them.

aknowledgeableperson wrote:Even the best sauce, no matter what kind, can mask a piece of meat not prepared or smoked properly. But much like a seasoning it can compliment the item it is on. So one loves the meat without a sauce. No one is saying you can't enjoy it that way. If one loves the meat with a taste of a sauce they love then more power to them.

You have just used a lot of words to explain the nature of condiments.

If I recall, the practice of using flavored sauces in BBQ originally developed among poor people seeking to improve the experience of cooking with lower-quality meat. It was all they could afford, and they were not the best cuts. So those cooking them hoped to make them more palatable by slathering them with tasty sauces. Over time, that element was expanded to include sauces in the cooking of all types of meat.

Spices for foods have been around for a very long time. And I would imagine sauces also for the same amount of time. Both used to make the food have a better taste.