KCRag Forum

This development is a suburban as anything in Johnson Country. Is it better than a couple of asphalt lots? Well sure, but the developers and architects could give us something a lot better, and more urban, if they knew the demand for this kind of clubhouse stuff was over.

Rabble wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 pm This development is a suburban as anything in Johnson Country. Is it better than a couple of asphalt lots? Well sure, but the developers and architects could give us something a lot better, and more urban, if they knew the demand for this kind of clubhouse stuff was over.

Define "more urban".

Rabble wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 pm This development is a suburban as anything in Johnson Country. Is it better than a couple of asphalt lots? Well sure, but the developers and architects could give us something a lot better, and more urban, if they knew the demand for this kind of clubhouse stuff was over.

What?

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:53 pm

Rabble wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 pm This development is a suburban as anything in Johnson Country. Is it better than a couple of asphalt lots? Well sure, but the developers and architects could give us something a lot better, and more urban, if they knew the demand for this kind of clubhouse stuff was over.

Define "more urban".

Built to the sidewalk with a alley down the middle dividing the block. Standard for urban planning until after WW II.

Rabble wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 pm This development is a suburban as anything in Johnson Country.

Sure, Jan.

Rabble wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 pmif they knew the demand for this kind of clubhouse stuff was over.

Over according to who?

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:53 pm

Rabble wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 pm This development is a suburban as anything in Johnson Country. Is it better than a couple of asphalt lots? Well sure, but the developers and architects could give us something a lot better, and more urban, if they knew the demand for this kind of clubhouse stuff was over.

Define "more urban".

No alleys but the Power & Light district is excellent modern urbanism. I'm still amazed by how well Cordish hid the parking. Maybe Cordish deserves heat for not filling up the retail but their design and layout is right on. It felt like a movie set in the beginning, because everything was brand new, but now it feels like a natural extension of downtown. Nothing suburban here.

Arterra and Reverb are both excellent urban apartments. 2nd and Delaware may end up being one of the most important buildings in the history of the city.

If you have to build with wood I don't think you could do better than Centropolis.

Centropolis & Reverb have effectively dead ground floors. That’s not good urbanism. Good density, sure. But on the urban front it’s shit.

Cordish was able to hide parking because P&L is subsidized to the hilt. It’s not a viable expectation for buildings with minimal or no public subsidy.

A lack of retail does not equal dead space. I don't think every building downtown needs retail along it's entire first floor. And if a demand for retail became strong enough both buildings would simply be retro-fitted. I find both buildings very interesting to walk by as they are. Reverb will get even better when it has neighbors.

Rabble wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:02 am A lack of retail does not equal dead space. I don't think every building downtown needs retail along it's entire first floor. And if a demand for retail became strong enough both buildings would simply be retro-fitted. I find both buildings very interesting to walk by as they are. Reverb will get even better when it has neighbors.

I didn’t say retail. Retail should not exist in every building’s first floor. Active use should exist on the first floor. That can be office space, residential units, or gasp, amenity space.

If you’re giving retrofitting as an excuse for those other two’s poor street interaction, then you could extend the same courtesy to your perceived flaws of Artistry.

horizons82 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:20 am

Rabble wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:02 am A lack of retail does not equal dead space. I don't think every building downtown needs retail along it's entire first floor. And if a demand for retail became strong enough both buildings would simply be retro-fitted. I find both buildings very interesting to walk by as they are. Reverb will get even better when it has neighbors.

I didn’t say retail. Retail should not exist in every building’s first floor. Active use should exist on the first floor. That can be office space, residential units, or gasp, amenity space.

If you’re giving retrofitting as an excuse for those other two’s poor street interaction, then you could extend the same courtesy to your perceived flaws of Artistry.

I find parking garage louvers more pleasant to look at than over-weight lawyers on ellipticals.

Artistry would require a start over, not a retro-fit.

^Somewhere in the middle of this is that developers should design ground level that is conducive to retail or some form of publicly accessible space at some point, not necessarily at first. When market conditions are poor, the space can be used for building amenities, as market/neighborhood conditions hit sweet spot, it can be adapted to retail or publicly accessible space. Developers should be thinking with this in mind, not creating deadzone walled sidewalk experiences that would be difficult to retrofit.

Rabble wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:31 am I find parking garage louvers more pleasant to look at than over-weight lawyers on ellipticals.

Alright. If you’re more pleased by screened parking than active uses (not just retail) then we’re just fundamentally not going to agree on the form of the city.

Rabble wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:31 am Artistry would require a start over, not a retro-fit.

It wouldn’t and doesn’t.

Well the good news is that Artistry is wood construction so the site can still be in the running for the ballpark.

Is not some aspect of artistry fronting a sidewalk for 90% of the site.

I believe many of the sidewalk facing units have ground floor entrances. Even the ground floor units facing the viaduct have entrances from the outside.

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:06 am Is not some aspect of artistry fronting a sidewalk for 90% of the site.

I believe many of the sidewalk facing units have ground floor entrances. Even the ground floor units facing the viaduct have entrances from the outside.

For the buildings between Oak, Locust, 19th and 20th, the opening to the northeast is at least 20%.

Interestingly, they do have a phase 2 building planned directly east of this gap across Locust.

Draw Architecture posted these photos.

https://www.facebook.com/drawarch.kc/ph ... 9074475885

FangKC wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:34 pm Draw Architecture posted these photos.

https://www.facebook.com/drawarch.kc/ph ... 9074475885

Units are nice and you get a lot of space for the money. I highly recommend it.

Are we in Overland Park or Lenexa City Center? Nope, this is an example of suburbanist urbanism right here in downtown KC. Developers will fill our downtown with this junk, because it's so much cheaper to build with wood than with concrete or steel. But like any suburban apartment complex, it will look like shit in a generation. And that is not a concern to the developer.

Rabble wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:22 pm Are we in Overland Park or Lenexa City Center? Nope, this is an example of suburbanist urbanism right here in downtown KC. Developers will fill our downtown with this junk, because it's so much cheaper to build with wood than with concrete or steel. But like any suburban apartment complex, it will look like shit in a generation. And that is not a concern to the developer.

I mean, we need more housing now. The land was literally near-wasteland, a surface parking lot right by rail road tracks. I think it's a fine use of the site.

Rabble wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:22 pm Are we in Overland Park or Lenexa City Center? Nope, this is an example of suburbanist urbanism right here in downtown KC. Developers will fill our downtown with this junk, because it's so much cheaper to build with wood than with concrete or steel. But like any suburban apartment complex, it will look like shit in a generation. And that is not a concern to the developer.

That junk will be there in 100 years because it will be cheap to repair.