KCRag Forum

you'd think such an effective city manager could have fixed these things by now.

DaveKCMO wrote: you'd think such an effective city manager could have fixed these things by now.

OH SNAP!

I asked this general question in a thread in general KC but nobody gave any real responses as to the issues they have faced.

KCPowercat wrote: I asked this general question in a thread in general KC but nobody gave any real responses as to the issues they have faced.

I thought Chef gave some pretty good answers:

http://forum.kcrag.com/http://www.kcrag ... 56#p372056

Sounds like the health department and alcohol licensing department are ridiculous poorly staffed.

loftguy wrote: This isn't a big secret.  The development community, from the highest to the lowest, has brought the problem to the attention of city officials, both career and elected, for well over a decade.  It gets a bit better for a while, then.....?  Right now we're hearing a lot of complaints.

If bringing it up with the city doesn't get results, bringing it up with the people who elect them might. Someone trying to get permits and inspections should start a blog...

The dynamic is the same, it doesn't matter which city you go to.  There are poorly paid inspectors reviewing the work of more professional contractors.  Its a hard process.  People blame others when they screw up.

Stroud's moved to Mission/Fairway because they thought they would get the red carpet rolled out for them.  When they wanted to paint the ceiling of the restaurant the inspector told them they had to get city council approval first.  Then the council didn't have a quorum, etc...  The owner said it was worse than KC.

KCPowercat wrote: I asked this general question in a thread in general KC but nobody gave any real responses as to the issues they have faced.

i gave very detailed answers in the thread you asked. i am sure a few others on this forum with experience opening a place downtown can also give you the answers you desire.

allow me to add on to my lengthy reply though. a lot of the problems that kcmo faces, other cities face too. however, kansas city has a system of suburbs that are much more self sufficient than other cities do, thusly, making it that much more important in kcmo that it be easier to open your business, not harder. if it is harder than it is in a newer development, you will say screw it and bail. many do in kcmo, and we all know it to be all too true.

Sorry didn't literally mean nobody. Hardly anybody, chef did give a good breakdown of his experience

kcdcchef wrote: allow me to add on to my lengthy reply though. a lot of the problems that kcmo faces, other cities face too. however, kansas city has a system of suburbs that are much more self sufficient than other cities do, thusly, making it that much more important in kcmo that it be easier to open your business, not harder. if it is harder than it is in a newer development, you will say screw it and bail. many do in kcmo, and we all know it to be all too true.

Bingo!  Winner!

That's is and will always be the biggest challenge to KCMO.

How can KCMO offer a level of service comparable to places like Lee's Summit, Liberty, Olathe and Overland Park?  From trash pick up to snow plowing to tree trimming to utility cuts into streets, KCMO just doesn't do as well as most of the suburbs and probably never will.

In KC, everybody expects an urban city of nearly half million people to be just like a suburb that wasn't even around in 1950.

I understand there are problems and a lot of red tape in KCMO, but I don't see how it can be too difficult.

Look at all the stores that have opened in the city of KCMO in the past few years from Zona Rosa / Tiffany Springs Marketplace to the Shoal Creek area to the Blue Ridge Mall area to the Martin City area.  Developers are able to come into KCMO and build 100k to 1 million sq ft plus shopping centers with little to no delay.  They seem to open just as fast as similar developments do in the suburbs, if not faster because many of the burbs have more strict zoning and architectural requirements and tend to have more nimbys that that are not intimidated by a "big city" city hall.  It's easier to open a walmart in KCMO vs Liberty, Lee's Summit or Overland Park for example which is why a lot of suburban retail developments are on the border of growing suburbs, but in the city of KCMO (near Liberty, Indep and Leawood).

I don't really know.  Maybe it's much different downtown and maybe it's much different when you have a project that is heavily subsidized by incentives such as the p&L district.

But I tend to think development in KC is not a bad as people think.  It's not as easy as some cities, but not as difficult as others.  I heard Blue Springs was one of the hardest to work with as is Overland Park and Leawood.

I would imagine development in a city like NYC (especially on Manhattan) has an even harder/longer process than in DT KCMO. 

18 months ago, the Springstead Group did a metro-wide study on permit times.  Most of the communities required 6 to 10 weeks for permit issuance....KCMO finished somewhere around TWENTY SIX WEEKS.  Absolutely rediculous.

Midtownkid wrote: I would imagine development in a city like NYC (especially on Manhattan) has an even harder/longer process than in DT KCMO. 

Yeah - but those headaches are associated with building on some of the most valuable and sought after real estate in the world - DTKCMO, not so much.  I don't think KCMO has quite gotten to the point where we can have a take our crap or leave it stance with potential developers/entrepeneurs. 

Yea, I don't have first hand knowledge of what it takes to build a retail store in KCMO.  I'm not saying I don't believe KCMO red tape has delayed the opening of the grocery store.  I'm just saying that it seems to me that it's not quite a bad "city wide" as it might be for a complicated urban project with a lot of contracts and complicated financing tied to or backed by the city.

Either way, I wouldn't complain.  I think the grocery store will be the biggest accomplishment by Cordish/KCMO.  I'm just amazed it's still happening, I really am.  It will be the most important development to hit downtown.  I hope it survives and even thrives.  That will say a lot to future potential tenants and should be the biggest selling point to get more residents downtown once the real-estate market bounces back.

construction guy wrote: 18 months ago, the Springstead Group did a metro-wide study on permit times.  Most of the communities required 6 to 10 weeks for permit issuance....KCMO finished somewhere around TWENTY SIX WEEKS.  Absolutely rediculous.

is there any more detail to this stuff...try and figure out the root cause....this discussion is probably best continued here

http://forum.kcrag.com/http://www.kcrag ... 56#p372056

GRID wrote: Either way, I wouldn't complain.  I think the grocery store will be the biggest accomplishment by Cordish/KCMO.  I'm just amazed it's still happening, I really am.  It will be the most important development to hit downtown.  I hope it survives and even thrives.  That will say a lot to future potential tenants and should be the biggest selling point to get more residents downtown once the real-estate market bounces back.

Just to echo this point, there are much larger cities that still don't have a downtown grocer to match Cosentino's. It is my hope that the store is bustling with residents and office workers during the peak hours of 4-7 PM and add a much needed streetlife to the heart of the city's CBD. There still needs to be an effort to get thousands more residential units under construction to help support the city's investment and force future retail expansion around this complex.

construction guy wrote: 18 months ago, the Springstead Group did a metro-wide study on permit times.  Most of the communities required 6 to 10 weeks for permit issuance....KCMO finished somewhere around TWENTY SIX WEEKS.  Absolutely rediculous.

nope. not even close. larger metros, dc and nyc, both cities i have had first hand experience working with new restaurants, part owner in one, the process is wham bam thank you m'aam. larger cities have larger departments that have grown with the per capita demand. kcmo failed to do this. and they need to now more than ever. seriously, the city had like all of 5 areas of town that were infested with bars and restaurants 20 years ago. cbd, plaza, crown center, westport, and waldo. hardly true now, you have all these districts of town that were not even around back then, river market, crossroads, p&l, etc, etc, etc. and as a result, the departments handling these concerns should have also doubled, or at least grown. they did not. and they need to.

also, other larger cities, abolished parking ordinances decades ago with regards to how many spaces you need. washington dc does not even have such an ordinance about how many spaces per car you need. the only ordinances the district has is based on you being valet or not valet. if you advertise valet, and offer it, then they make you have so many spaces contracted out. no ordinances of any kind here in pittsburgh either. neighbor of mine just opened up a new restaurant called palate. excellent french cuisine. no ordinances, no spots, nothing.

kcmo could spur all kinds of crossroads style developments in all sorts of areas, particularly east village, by abolishing bullshit 1950's parking laws.

kcdcchef wrote: nope. not even close. larger metros, dc and nyc, both cities i have had first hand experience working with new restaurants, part owner in one, the process is wham bam thank you m'aam. larger cities have larger departments that have grown with the per capita demand. kcmo failed to do this. and they need to now more than ever. seriously, the city had like all of 5 areas of town that were infested with bars and restaurants 20 years ago. cbd, plaza, crown center, westport, and waldo. hardly true now, you have all these districts of town that were not even around back then, river market, crossroads, p&l, etc, etc, etc. and as a result, the departments handling these concerns should have also doubled, or at least grown. they did not. and they need to.

According to page 153 of the City's budget for the current fiscal year about 25% more money, from 2 years ago, is being spent on food inspection and food handler permits with almost all of the increase going to salaries and permits but the number of full time employees has been decreased by one.  They are hoping to perform about 50% more normal inspections than 2 years ago so they have either reallocated personnel or have shorter inspections or something.

With regards to liquor control that is a more difficult nut to crack since it is part of Regulated Industries which also includes adult entertainment and taxis.  But according to page 237 of the budget it too is spending more money for Regulated Industries but the number of employees has increased by one in the two year period.

kcdcchef wrote: kcmo could spur all kinds of crossroads style developments in all sorts of areas, particularly east village, by abolishing bullshit 1950's parking laws.

I see a lot about these parking laws.  Seems like an obvious change.  Does anyone in the city government advocate for this?  Is there serious opposition?  Why doesn't this change?

Some of the people against the change are some of the current business owners in the crossroads.  Why?  Because they already have the cost of securing parking in their operational costs and they cannot get out of the parking agreements for a few years or have already puchased the required parking and new businesses would not have those costs and that would put the old businesses at a competive disadvantage.  And there are people and businesses making money from the parking requirements that would lose that source of income if the requirements were abolished.

Let's get back to the topic.
The issue is not the city.  The reason for the delay is Cordish.  They took their sweet time delivering the building.
There is no city permitting process that will make up for time wasted by a developer.