Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

[kcmetro]

Your theory presupposes that mechanical efficiency and petroleum costs will be able to increase at an evenly matched rate.  Most mechanical efficiency improvements are limited by diminishing returns whereas the potential rate of increase in petroleum cost as demand continues to substantialy outpace supply is likely exponential.

Which basically means we're fucked.

[aknowledgeableperson]

huh?  I keep hearing how people living in the city are poor and can't afford to live further out....I'm confused.

All that I know is that a few years ago my wife and I did look at some homes closer to town, so-to-speak.  Moving from Red Bridge to closer in would have given us far less house for the same price or spend at least $100,000 more for a house that was close to what we have now.

[lock+load]

All that I know is that a few years ago my wife and I did look at some homes closer to town, so-to-speak.  Moving from Red Bridge to closer in would have given us far less house for the same price or spend at least $100,000 more for a house that was close to what we have now.

Do you really need all the space you have now? 

[bahua]

"more house" is always automatically better, no matter what!

[Maitre D]

"more house" is always automatically better, no matter what!

In cold weather cities, it is.  Seriuosly.  I don't care about my house much when it's nice outside and i'm out & about.  But small places suck in the winter when you're cramped.  Esp if you have roomates.

[nota]

Do you really need all the space you have now? 

I don't know about AKP or even how much space he is thinking of, but living in the city certainly won't trump having space for all the things I want to do. Yes, we need all the space we have now.

[loftguy]

I don't know about AKP or even how much space he is thinking of, but living in the city certainly won't trump having space for all the things I want to do. Yes, we need all the space we have now.

http://urbantimeskc.com/pdf/march08/mar08_last_call.pdf

"A good number of Kansas Citians have taken conscious and
deliberate steps to simplify their lives. The growing movement
into lofts and condos exemplifies this decision. As people become
empty nesters and choose to give up their McMansions for an
urban address, they have to take a really hard look at what things
are truly important. They also are faced with identifying all the
myriad acquisitions they can live well without. You can’t cram five
bedrooms, a three-car garage, a basement, a rec room, an office,
and living-dining-family-hearth room into 1,500 square feet. And
why would you want to?"

[nota]

http://urbantimeskc.com/pdf/march08/mar08_last_call.pdf

"A good number of Kansas Citians have taken conscious and
deliberate steps to simplify their lives. The growing movement
into lofts and condos exemplifies this decision. As people become
empty nesters and choose to give up their McMansions for an
urban address, they have to take a really hard look at what things
are truly important. They also are faced with identifying all the
myriad acquisitions they can live well without. You can’t cram five
bedrooms, a three-car garage, a basement, a rec room, an office,
and living-dining-family-hearth room into 1,500 square feet. And
why would you want to?"

Those people aren't us nor is our situation like above. We are actually downsizing a bit, but we are finding it really hard to find a house to fit our needs. We didn't want to build, but are probably going to have to.

We need 1800 to 2000 square feet-3 bedrooms, at least 2 baths, huge kitchen, large family room, nix on the dining room, maybe nix on the living room. But we also need a full unfinished basement for my husband's wood shop where he makes beautiful cherry furniture and a 3 car garage to hold 2 cars and the 3rd bay for a "work on" car and the lawnmower, etc. We are hoping for at least an acre. Hard to find here where we are looking because they are building a new Honda plant nearby and real estate here is flying through the roof.

We moved from 2800 square feet 4 bedrooms, 3 1/2 baths with a 3 car garage and full unfinished basement on a 100 x 150 lot.

Our lifestyle is opposite of city dwellers. We enjoy our home. We don't look outside for entertainment often. We entertain frequently-large groups. We both love to cook and have lots of kitchen stuff that we wouldn't want to part with. Hubby's shop is wonderful for his hobby and he used it every day and will when we get a permanent home. The garage is a must as we both hate cars parked on the street and we like to keep our cars nice rather than leave them out in the elements. The garage shop bay is used many times. We change our own oil, work on whatever needs working on and store mowers and yard equipment as well. We need a guest room and a computer room, hence 3 bedrooms. We need a large yard as we both love gardening and landscaping.

We don't feel the need to simplify. We've done that long ago. We'll probably do it again in 10 or so years, but for now, this is what we need.

[lock+load]

but for now, this is what we need want.

Fixed that for you.

[knucklehead]

heating and air conditioning bills are going nowhere but up. With natural gas at $13 per mcf, and coal prices escalating even faster than natural gas,  expect electricity prices in this area to hit 16 cents per kwh within the next couple of years. That is double the price from a couple of years ago.

Gas and electricity combined will be about $3,600 a year for a 2,000 square foot house. Basically, you add about $1.25 a year for each square foot you add to the house at those price levels. Most people who can buy that much house can swing those heating and cooling bills, but if it doubles again - which it could - some people will ask why they need all that space. Do they really want to pay $300 a year to heat and cool that spare 10 x 12 bedroom? (120 square feet times $2.5 per foot).

Prices in the northeast and California are already at the 16 to 18 cents per kwh level. Illinois and Pennslvania are very high and prices in Texas are going up like a rocket.

Fortunately Missouri and Kansas have not adopted electric deregulation so are prices are lower here- but when a carbon cap and trade system is implemented (just a matter of time) we will be hit particularly hard because of our heavy coal use.

[nota]

Fixed that for you.

Sounds fine to me as long as you also cross out all the things you enjoy. Like bars and restaurants, etc.

Why on earth should anyone have to give up what they enjoy?

[nota]

heating and air conditioning bills are going nowhere but up. With natural gas at $13 per mcf, and coal prices escalating even faster than natural gas,  expect electricity prices in this area to hit 16 cents per kwh within the next couple of years. That is double the price from a couple of years ago.

Gas and electricity combined will be about $3,600 a year for a 2,000 square foot house. Basically, you add about $1.25 a year for each square foot you add to the house at those price levels. Most people who can buy that much house can swing those heating and cooling bills, but if it doubles again - which it could - some people will ask why they need all that space. Do they really want to pay $300 a year to heat and cool that spare 10 x 12 bedroom? (120 square feet times $2.5 per foot).

Our gas is a little cheaper than that here. However the answer to your question is no, we will not mind paying for that room's heat and cooling. Part of our cost of living.

Prices in the northeast and California are already at the 16 to 18 cents per kwh level. Illinois and Pennslvania are very high and prices in Texas are going up like a rocket.

Fortunately Missouri and Kansas have not adopted electric deregulation so are prices are lower here- but when a carbon cap and trade system is implemented (just a matter of time) we will be hit particularly hard because of our heavy coal use.

Our price here in IN is a bit less also for elect. I can't quote the kwh price now, but I've compared bill to bill with our KCPL vs. Duke but I've since filed those bills. Not that it makes a whole lot of difference, we can't or won't go back to kerosene any time soon.

FWIW-I don't much believe in the carbon credits-I'd prefer to actually use less rather than try to justify using more because I buy carbon credits.

[bahua]

Sounds fine to me as long as you also cross out all the things you enjoy. Like bars and restaurants, etc.

Why on earth should anyone have to give up what they enjoy?

Bars and restaurants that take up too much space for what they do will certainly be on the chopping block, but there's a difference between your leisure being out in the world, and it being inside your own walls.

[Maitre D]

heating and air conditioning bills are going nowhere but up. With natural gas at $13 per mcf, and coal prices escalating even faster than natural gas,  expect electricity prices in this area to hit 16 cents per kwh within the next couple of years. That is double the price from a couple of years ago.

Gas and electricity combined will be about $3,600 a year for a 2,000 square foot house. Basically, you add about $1.25 a year for each square foot you add to the house at those price levels. Most people who can buy that much house can swing those heating and cooling bills, but if it doubles again - which it could - some people will ask why they need all that space. Do they really want to pay $300 a year to heat and cool that spare 10 x 12 bedroom? (120 square feet times $2.5 per foot).

Prices in the northeast and California are already at the 16 to 18 cents per kwh level. Illinois and Pennslvania are very high and prices in Texas are going up like a rocket.

Fortunately Missouri and Kansas have not adopted electric deregulation so are prices are lower here- but when a carbon cap and trade system is implemented (just a matter of time) we will be hit particularly hard because of our heavy coal use.

If that happens, expect the environmentalist movement to lose a LOT of their momentum, as people look for cheaper living costs.  When it comes to a choice btw low prices vs saving dirt, you know how most Americans feel.

[nota]

Bars and restaurants that take up too much space for what they do will certainly be on the chopping block, but there's a difference between your leisure being out in the world, and it being inside your own walls.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. However it isn't ours and we can't help it if people can't find enough leisure and family time at home so they have to go out all the time. Not a life I would enjoy.

[knucklehead]

If that happens, expect the environmentalist movement to lose a LOT of their momentum, as people look for cheaper living costs.   When it comes to a choice btw low prices vs saving dirt, you know how most Americans feel.

You have to admire the consistency of the American public. After taking a short term myopic and unpatriotic approach to energy policy for the last 30 years we will compound the error by taking a short term mypoic unpatriotic approach to global warming. But I have to agree with your spot on analysis of the way we think. 

[mean]

We need 1800 to 2000 square feet-3 bedrooms, at least 2 baths, huge kitchen, large family room, nix on the dining room, maybe nix on the living room. But we also need a full unfinished basement for my husband's wood shop where he makes beautiful cherry furniture and a 3 car garage to hold 2 cars and the 3rd bay for a "work on" car and the lawnmower, etc. We are hoping for at least an acre.

You just described my house, minus the garage and the acre. $130k, five minutes from downtown. Not many other cities you could pull that off in!

While I love living in the city and utilizing it as my part-time living room on many nights, I'm also all about entertaining in the house. So it's a good compromise, for me. This is an old neighborhood, with lots of old growth trees and parks nearby; at the same time, I can walk to the coffeeshop, the grocery store, the CVS, a dollar store, a 7-11, several ice cream shops, a few bars, and dozens of restaurants. I love it! I am a cheap cab ride away from the coolest parts of town, there's tons of stuff to walk to, but I also have a reasonably sized house in a quiet neighborhood where I know my neighbors and often entertain groups of friends. For me, that is about as perfect as it gets.

I think we're not so different, really.

Hey, I just made a trip today to St. Louis and back (not for the game but to pick up a granddaughter) and I made the trip on $2 gasoline.  How?  Easy the vehicle I used got twice the gas mileage than the one I would have used.

Your car gets 1000 miles per gallon?

[aknowledgeableperson]

Your car gets 1000 miles per gallon?

OK.  OK.  $2 per gallon.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Do you really need all the space you have now? 

365 days a year, no.  But there are times when we do need the space.  And there might be times when we could use more (especially once in the past when we housed my son's soccer team and a few others for one night when they were in town for a tournament, and by the way they won).

Anyway, if you want to talk about space then why do some have to have those big lofts?  Or are 900 sq ft with one bedroom lofts OK since they are part of a bigger building?  One bedroom with 400 sq ft sounds about right for me for one (or even two) person in a loft.  And why not skip the bedroom and make it a studio if it is just for one person.

Knucklehead talked about utility costs.  Well, those costs will also apply to units in multi-family housing and their common areas.  And with newer houses being more weathertight and the higher efficiency of the house's HVAC system utility costs should be lower than with older homes.

[lock+load]

365 days a year, no.  But there are times when we do need the space.  And there might be times when we could use more (especially once in the past when we housed my son's soccer team and a few others for one night when they were in town for a tournament, and by the way they won).

Anyway, if you want to talk about space then why do some have to have those big lofts?  Or are 900 sq ft with one bedroom lofts OK since they are part of a bigger building?  One bedroom with 400 sq ft sounds about right for me for one (or even two) person in a loft.  And why not skip the bedroom and make it a studio if it is just for one person.

Yeah, it really makes sense to own extra space in your house so once in your life you can house an unusually large group of people.  Put them up in a hotel.

So a 900 sqft loft is now "big" (and it sounds like you think unnecessary)? Yet a 2000 sqft house is necessary to have space to use as a hotel a few times a year.  You just don't make sense.