Downtown Baseball Stadium

[voltopt]

ahhh... jackson county missouri.

i choose to vote no, and i usually vote yes for this kind of stuff (ie light rail, arena, bartle hall)
because its a joke.  a big waste of time and money.
I"m sick of being raked over the coals, and i don't mean financially.  i mean generally - this county sucks.  its a terrible place and i wish kansas city was not a part of it.

it is old guard, cook county in a rural sense.  i understand WHY it is the way it is, but with all of the bickering, infighting, and inablity to think even somewhat progressively i can see why most creative people get the hell out of dodge. 

i chose to stay, and more and more, i am crestfallen and disapointed.  i feel like the people leading this county weren't the smart kids in high school - i feel like they were the one's with the biggest smiles and the best handshakes.

and the sad thing is i'm going to stay right here in kansas city missouri, right here in midtown, because i still hold out hope that people will wake up and actually try to change their perception.

[beautyfromashes]

Are the county officials elected or appointed?  If elected, I'd like to offiically put my hat in the ring for the next election. Tell me where to sign up and how many signatures I'll need.

[LenexatoKCMO]

either way, in jackson county, bi state II passed easily. and again, it is not even 2 years later, and the pot will get a lot sweeter for the jackson county voters. a lot of which are older types, who fear losing the teams, and see this as a we do it for them every 37 or so years, so let's just do it.

Chef - lets look at some of the talking points the voters will be hearing over and over in the coming months - much of which wasn't relevant back for BII.  Hell, half of it may be bullshit but it will still get the job done and make sure this gets defeated:

-this tax will hurt small businesses and the economy
-this tax is going to make it more expensive for struggling woking class jackson county families to survive.
-this tax is a gift to wealthy out of town owners who should be paying for it themselves.
-the owners raise ticket and concession prices every year but they still want $xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx dollars from us?
-your tax money is going to a corrupt county legislature that is headed by a chairwoman under federal investigation for various corruption charges.
-This money is going to be managed by a sports authority that has mismanaged the TSC budget for years to the point of near lease default.
-Why should you pay for this if you don't like sports or can't afford to go?  
-this money is going to fix up out of date facilities when we could have new facilities for a similar price.  
-even with all of this money, the TSC facilities will still be inferior to newly constructed facilities.
-the schools and roads are still a mess but they want us to spend $xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx dollars for a bunch of rich, white owners?  
-this tax is an enormous burden on us jackson countians and a responsible plan would involve a lower rate, spread out over a wider base.
-they are going to spend this money to close in arrowhead with a roof that us fans don't even want, ruining the fan experience.
-they are going to spend even more of your money to try and get a super bowl game that you won't be able to go to.  
-even if they spend all of this money, a renovated Kaufman stadium will do little to improve the Royals as a ballclub.
-and last but not least - you could have this beautiful brand new downtown ballpark and a reasonably renovated Arrowhead for less money than they are asking for here.  

Good luck - I don't think the threat of the Chiefs moving to KCK will be enough to counter all of that.  

[KCMax]

Are the county officials elected or appointed?  If elected, I'd like to offiically put my hat in the ring for the next election. Tell me where to sign up and how many signatures I'll need.

The Jackson County Legislature is elected to four year terms. I know Kathrine Shields is up for re-election next year, and I'd love to see her go down (unless the Feds get her first). There are legislators elected from each of six districts in Jackson County, then three at large legislators from three larger districts.

[mean]

i chose to stay, and more and more, i am crestfallen and disapointed.  i feel like the people leading this county weren't the smart kids in high school - i feel like they were the one's with the biggest smiles and the best handshakes.

When my wife graduates in the spring, it's going to be very, very hard to not bolt for Chicago or Philly or New York. I keep telling myself that KC needs the young, smart, progressive crowd desperately, but the truth is being a minority sucks. Being young and creative in KC is fine if you're an apolitical nonvoter trying to sell your paintings in the crossroads, or you're reasonably well-off ala Stretch; but in terms of progressive political thought KC might as well be Islamabad.

[Marreekarr]

Well, then let the Chiefs go to Kansas then. And if the Royals want to fold or leave then fuck them! And I'm a season ticket holder to both! We'll get hockey or NBA to fill the void and be just fine with an additional $500M in our pockets!

That's what I'iiiim tallkin bout!  Let us be the first metro to tell big sports to go stick it to themselves.  Why does California always start the new trends.  Maybe KC can start a trend where we tell big sports to worship us and not the other way around.  They're lucky we built the damn stadiums in the first place.

[GRID]

I thought Downtown was in Jackson County...

[ComandanteCero]

edit:*whoops, wrong thread.*

[dangerboy]

The Jackson County Legislature is elected to four year terms. I know Kathrine Shields is up for re-election next year, and I'd love to see her go down (unless the Feds get her first). There are legislators elected from each of six districts in Jackson County, then three at large legislators from three larger districts.

If Katheryn does go to the big house she will likely run for mayor of KCMO in 2007.  Scary, no?

[kcdcchef]

Chef - lets look at some of the talking points the voters will be hearing over and over in the coming months - much of which wasn't relevant back for BII.  Hell, half of it may be bullshit but it will still get the job done and make sure this gets defeated:

-this tax will hurt small businesses and the economy

which small business owners does it hurt? i guess small ones near blue ridge that depend upon tsc events are not the ones you speak of. because if the royals and chiefs move downtown, you would not give two shits about the hotels ( there are 4, even though they all suck ) near tsc, a few small restaurants ( that also suck ) and then the farther you go down the cutoff, to 40 hwy, or stadium drive, there are only more. and the fellowship of christian athletes, i am sure they are where they are only because of tsc. this is as good as the argument that wal mart kills small business, all the while sams club keeps small business in business.

-this tax is going to make it more expensive for struggling woking class jackson county families to survive.

yeah, because paying a tax to rebuld downtown stadiums, will not hurt them. i guess in your estimation, paying taxes for a downtown park is free. and let us look at those jackson county families...........last i checked, kcmo was part of jackson county. and within the city there are lots and lots of families that are lower, real lower class. unfortunate, but true. lots of them count on working on cleaning those stadium lots, parking cars, working the toll booths, being lot attendants, etc. and further, a lot of them work in the stadiums, vending, concession, clean up, but you go ahead, fuck the royals and chiefs, let em leave. and what about all the hotel and restaurant and entertainment employees in the city, that depend on the people the teams bring in? even as shitty as the royals are, they have sellouts, several a year, opening day, cardinals and yankees games, the friday fireworks still generate 25-29k, other give aways, and the chiefs too, they keep a lot of people employed. sure, say i am wrong. but where will any of us be to argue about it if we lose the teams? but sure, fuck em, let em leave. they provide nothing.

-this tax is a gift to wealthy out of town owners who should be paying for it themselves.

one of my favorites i keep hearing. yeah, glass and hunt should pay for it all, because jack kent cooke, robert kraft, steinbrenner, and a few others are willing too. examine cities in OUR stratoshpere. cincinatti, pittsburgh, cleveland, texas, toronto, indianapolis, even chicago, baltimore, many others, their owners did not pay for, the towns and counties did. you cannot compare david glass and lamar hunt, to steinbrenner, jerry jones, robert kraft, the trib in chicago ( cubs ) our owners are not gagillionabillionares. they are billionaires, and last i checked, glass was only a millionare. they will contribute, last i checked, both were speaking of putting in excess of 50m a piece. to pitch in 25% is a lot.

-the owners raise ticket and concession prices every year but they still want $xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx dollars from us?

the royals have some of the cheapest ticket prices in baseball. this season alone i watched major league baseball, the royals no less, in new york, boston, cleveland, toronto, and baltimore. next year i intend to see interleague games in cincinatti. my point? they are the cheapest baseball tickets anywhere i have ever been, in kansas city. and those are all publicly funded ballparks at the moment, that may change in new york, but all the others the public built.

-your tax money is going to a corrupt county legislature that is headed by a chairwoman under federal investigation for various corruption charges.
 

this may be true. it is all under investigation, so is delay, so is cheney, clinton was for all 8 years, reagan dodged major investigations by getting alzheimers, shit happens. when she is guilty, or aquitted, i will judge.

-This money is going to be managed by a sports authority that has mismanaged the TSC budget for years to the point of near lease default.
-  

mismanaged, or the pennies they worked with were not enough. compare what jackson county gives the tsc versus other cities. we are getting off real easy. i mean, real easy. i would not mind seeing what they mismanaged, everyone is bitching them out about how they are fucking up, lets see these books, from what i heard about the lease kauffman himself along with hunt negotiated with waris back in 90, the county is getting a real shitty amount of money to work with on the tsc. i mean, the county has to fix all the electical, plumbing, sewer, the lots, all that. from what i heard, it is 2m a year, they get to do all that. if that is correct, you go out there and show me how to do all of that for 2m. and if you say you can, cool, you and i can talk budget over it. i do not see 2m being adequate.

[quote author=LenexatoKCMO  -Why should you pay for this if you don't like sports or can't afford to go?}  

then by all means, don't go. double edged sword, we cannot afford to go, ( and with $7 parking for the royals, and $8 seats, and buck nights, that is a crock of shit. ) but, you say we cannot afford it, the voters should not make me pay for it. or, i can afford it, how come voters who cannot afford it are deciding whether or not i get it? the teams do things for the region, namely, bring in millions of people, and millions of dollars. both teams combined, on a good year, bring in 2.5m to their complexes, not counting the hundreds of thousands more on tours, and other events there. and when people come from okey, or neb, or whereever there is not pro sports, they stay the night, stay at hotels, go to casinos and gamble, helping the schools and other programs, eat at restaurants, go to worlds of fun, shop on the plaza, whatever. but sure, fuck the teams, let em go, and let us lose all that revenue. sure, 12-15m for the local economy is overrated anyway.

-this money is going to fix up out of date facilities when we could have new facilities for a similar price.  

ummm, both are rated, in ballparks.com, and according to kcmax, espn.com, in the top 10. kauffman is 32 years old, and ahead of 14 newer stadiums. but yeah, lets throw that away. both stadiums are amazing, and we all know it. alot of you gung ho downtown parkers would not be beating this dead horse if it were not there to beat. if this shit was not going on, we would all be saying the same thing, man, kauffman is great, except for its location. blame your family, i do with mine. i bitch them out all of the time for voting to put it there back in 68.

and newer for a similar price? wow, man, you are off. the most recently opened park, was what, 350m, a couple of years ago? guess there was no rise in construction costs, oil prices, material costs, guess all construction workers are working for the same rate they were in 02, with no increases, guess there has been no inflation. yeah. 250m, as opposed to 450m, that will also allow us to keep a real damn nice stadium, is a good deal. if we were talking about busch, or 3 rivers, or mile high, or veterans, it would be different. but we are talking about a magnificent stadium.

-even with all of this money, the TSC facilities will still be inferior to newly constructed facilities.

yeah, because the rogers centre in canada, or that dump us cellular in chicago, or tropicana field in tampa, bankone in phoenix, yeah, all of those are so much better. NOT!!!!! pnc, arlington, all these new places are fucken modeled after kauffman. kauffman, and arrowhead are treasures, the only reason they are behind is the beyond game experience, restaurants, bigger concourses to play around on, etc, more suites, the stadium itself gets ranked in the top 10 for a reason.

- -the schools and roads are still a mess but they want us to spend $xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx dollars for a bunch of rich, white owners?  

so if both owners were black, it would be better? glass did us a favor, believe it or not, by taking on this burden of a franchise. noone else wanted it. look at the other suitors, miles prentice, whose group had 20 people, or brett, who could not afford to even buy 1/4 of the team. schools and roads are local issues. when your district puts out a bond issue for bigger rooms more teachers, better equipment, vote for it. that is your deal. the roads are fucked up all over america. life sucks, you know??  but according to you downtown stadium supporters, the roads should be fine, because it costs no more now to fix the roads then it did 4 years ago. because if stadium construction costs stay level, road repair work should too.

-this tax is an enormous burden on us jackson countians and a responsible plan would involve a lower rate, spread out over a wider base.
 

this tax is going to cost every jackson countian what, $500 over how many years? so, a few bucks a year? like how many dollars will this hit each jackson countian, $50 a year for 10 years? you cannot afford that, to keep these two teams? my grandpa gets by on social security, and he said he will gladly pay it. and he is 84.

-they are going to spend this money to close in arrowhead with a roof that us fans don't even want, ruining the fan experience.

you and i both know the roof on arrowhead will never happen. it was a nice idea, and the nfl was real nice to consider giving us one, but in the year 2050, when the global warming that is not happening, makes kc 70 in february, kc will get a super bowl. i can wait til then, god willing.

-they are going to spend even more of your money to try and get a super bowl game that you won't be able to go to.  
 

again, take a forum poll. who even believes it will happen? even if it does, fine, we get to say our city had that, and that is an elite class. but, it will not, and arrowhead had a pro bowl, that is definitely something most stadiums have not had.

-even if they spend all of this money, a renovated Kaufman stadium will do little to improve the Royals as a ballclub.

we all agree here. all this will do, much like a downtown ballpark, will help the royals spend 70m versus 50m, which, does not even really make the playoffs, there have been teams here and there that do make the playoffs at 65-70m, the white sox, but in 5 years, it will be 90m probably. baseball needs to fix the system. we all agree there. but it will help the royals be a little more close to the other teams in payroll. it will get us close to 15-24- versus 25-hell.

-and last but not least - you could have this beautiful brand new downtown ballpark and a reasonably renovated Arrowhead for less money than they are asking for here.  

noone is officially asking for a enclosed arrowhead, it is up for discussion. right now, all they are asking for, is 450m or so to do both.

a new k, is at least 450m, a renovated arrowhead, is 250m. that is 700. two different numbers.

[LenexatoKCMO]

Chef, I would try and point out were you completely misunderstood the issue with at least four or five of those items and the faults with some of your counter-points but instead I will simply point to the most important line in my post:

Hell, half of it may be bullshit but it will still get the job done and make sure this gets defeated:

Try seeing the forest through the trees.  The TSC renovation comes with an enormous amount of bagage that will significantly hurt it at the ballot.  With a stadium initiative in any town you are always going to be working the pro-sports vote v. the anti-tax vote.  This TSC renovation is going to be that much harder based on the fact that they have managed to completely fracture the pro-sports vote.  They have alienated baseball fans who want downtown.  They have alienated chiefs fans who don't want a roof.  They have pitted Royals fans v. Chiefs fans.  They have eliminated sports fans accross 3/4 of the metro from even being involved.  That is no way to treat the group of voters who is supposed to form your block.  They have limited themselves to getting votes from East Jack chiefs season ticket holders who like indoor football.  That ain't gping to get the job done. 

The reason Downtown baseball will eventually be back on the table after this ballot initiative goes down in flames is that they will do it right - They will put together a stadium proposal that most of the pro-sports voting block accross the entire metro can get excited about and support rather than this turd. 

[kcdcchef]

The reason Downtown baseball will eventually be back on the table 

yes, it will. in the year 2068.

[skim82]

THIS VOTE IS GOING TO GO DOWN

If it doesn't I really feel sorry for Jax Countians that have to foot the close to billion dollar bill.  Remeber with all the bonds issued, and all that, this will easily be over $600 - & 1 billion dollar fuck up.

Oh btw, I do care about this and will do everything in my power to defer people who plan on voting yes for it in April.

I will be living dt in less than a year, which means no one can give me crap about being a "joco" brat who doesn't care about Mizzery. 

 

[kcdcchef]

THIS VOTE IS GOING TO GO DOWN

If it doesn't I really feel sorry for Jax Countians that have to foot the close to billion dollar bill.  Remeber with all the bonds issued, and all that, this will easily be over $600 - & 1 billion dollar fuck up.

Oh btw, I do care about this and will do everything in my power to defer people who plan on voting yes for it in April.

I will be living dt in less than a year, which means no one can give me crap about being a "joco" brat who doesn't care about Mizzery. 

 

ata boy!!

[Tosspot]

I plan on buying a downtown condo within the next five to ten years (assuming career doesn't deracinate me away from KC), and I would actually attend a ball game if I could walk or take really quick transit to a nearby stadium. As it is now, I never attend Royals games unless some group of friends drags me with them.

[kcdcchef]

hey, i still plan on retiring to kansas city, so, if we are still discussing this in 20 years, i know how i will vote!

[beautyfromashes]

hey, i still plan on retiring to kansas city, so, if we are still discussing this in 20 years, i know how i will vote!

We don't want you.

[kcdcchef]

that is ok if you do not, or anyone on the board that has their head in the clouds dreaming, and dually up the............nevermind.

the beauty part is, i have the money to come home and retire, in a nice downtown pad. you on the other hand, will deliver me my pizza at night.

[beautyfromashes]

that is ok if you do not, or anyone on the board that has their head in the clouds dreaming, and dually up the............nevermind.

the beauty part is, i have the money to come home and retire, in a nice downtown pad. you on the other hand, will deliver me my pizza at night.

That's funny since I'll be owning the building you live in.

[kcdcchef]

i had a hard time at nichols, me and the small army of cockroaches in the back wanted control over the dairy walk in, and i refused to cease control.