Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

[normalthings]

An OP city council member tweeted that he wants to see a train down Metcalf. Here we go!

Looking forward to the 75th Street @kcstreetcar extension to Overland Park and then extended down Metcalf

- LoganHeley, Councilmember for Overland Park Ward 1

https://twitter.com/LoganHeley/status/1 ... 4826322947

[FangKC]

Downtown will never attract the regional high-paying high-tech, finance jobs back if we help Metcalf Avenue have the same amenities that central KCMO would have: good transit, entertainment, density.

Why is it in KCMO's interest to help Metcalf Avenue develop, maintain, and attract more of those jobs which would likely be at KCMO's expense? I only ask that based on the EVIDENCE of the last 40 years of Johnson County doing everything possible to suck the life out of KCMO with the help of the Kansas Legislature.

And is anyone living downtown really going to take the streetcar to 75th and Metcalf to work? It would take forever. If they are working there now, they will likely drive.

[FangKC]

In 50 years, imagine getting on a streetcar in Downtown Overland Park and riding up Medcalf, through Shawnee Mission, Rainbow Blvd, py KU Med, up to Main then across the river hitting NKC, Gladstone, Metro North Crossing, Zona Rosa, and then right to your gate at the Mayor Quinton Lucas Terminal at KCI.

By the time one went from Downtown Overland Park to KCI by streetcar, one would have celebrated two birthdays.

[FangKC]

I disagree with the above simply because an urban core only rail proposal is unlikely to be financially viable.

The best way forward is a regional vote for funding transit. JoCo,Wyco,Jackson, Clay and Platte. Jackson County already has a high tax burden, they cannot fund additional expansion alone. Create a master regional plan with proposed frequent bus/rail build outs and then sent it to the voters. Not sure on the specifics, such as if one county doesn't vote for it do we just cut them off from transit service, etc., but it should be regional combined with specific actions to make areas along Max/Streetcar corridors more dense and walkable. Instead of punishing our region for its negative growth patterns, we need to fix it.

I'm not even sure a regional vote for funding transit would even pass anywhere other than maybe Jackson and Wyandotte counties.

I'm not saying I wouldn't want it to happen. However, I have yet to see evidence people will give up driving daily. I want them to because we will never meet climate goals if we don't get more people out of their daily driving habit. I'm not even opposed to people having their own vehicles. Just not polluting ones that they are driving daily.

But, that said, I still see a lot of climate-denial in people -- especially here. I don't see them funding transit, or using it themselves. At this point, in flyover country, I don't see people making that choice unless there is some economic calamity where people simply can no longer afford to own their own vehicles, put fuel in them, or insure them.

The COVID pandemic has convinced me that there are huge numbers of Americans who are unwilling to make any sacrifice for the public good, or to stop climate change.

Finally, if we are going to have to do a big public education exercise, we need to retrain people's minds about taking the bus. It's a much quicker fix than rail plans, and would reach more areas quickly.

[AlkaliAxel]

It's time we use their suburban mindset against them. Suburbanites hate rail, density, and all all transit options? Fine, let them drown themselves in in that. While KCMO gets itself streetcar, downtown amenities, new airport, etc., let their "we don't want to pay for anything" ideals screw themselves because KCMO will start getting jobs and things built they can't get because they *refuse* to invest in these types of amenities.

So my point is don't help build them build rail or transit. Why let them continue to validate suburban life with it? If they want to go out on their own and make it happen, then great. But no, if they've been screwing us for decades, then use their anti-growth mindset against themselves. They won't make they key investments needed, while KCMO invests in transit and amenities needed for real growth and better jobs.

If KCMO creates its own vast streetcar network and fixes it's over-built highway issue, then good luck to JoCo in the jobs/talent battle future while they have their cars and sprawl. Don't help them build it and they'll pay the price.

[WoodDraw]

This convo is a bit unhinged

To bring things back to earth, what do we we think is the best tax here?

[beautyfromashes]

At this point, in flyover country….

Honestly, the point I stop reading your post.

[alejandro46]

Lots of negatvity and tribalism in this thread too.

Any tax should be a renewal of the existing 1/8th cent transit sales tax as a base, plus the 1% TDD and special assessment property tax. The wider the net, the lower the assessment could be.

Transit should be regional and a mix of bus and streetcar. Streetcar can run at 45-55mph. This is plenty fast. The distance from 75th to KCI is a whopping 33 miles - this isn't Denver or Chicago. Keep it basic, keep it simple, keep operation costs low. Make the MAX lines actually work and serve as streetcar extenders.

Most of this thread should go to the Regional Funding Streetcar thread. At this point, "Phase 2" is Riverfront+Main II, Phase 3 is gonna be NKC and East/West. depending on what gets funded first. Ideally, we have a regional funding mechanism which would allow for the pay for beforehand with rail and bus routes planned and designed to be built out pending funding as part of a long range plan (OneRideKC).

[normalthings]

More like 1/2 or 1 cent county to tax to make a dent in things

[DaveKCMO]

More like 1/2 or 1 cent county to tax to make a dent in things

How about every county just opt in to the level they choose?

[alejandro46]

More like 1/2 or 1 cent county to tax to make a dent in things

How about every county just opt in to the level they choose?

Instead of fares, we could just put collection boxes, "What is our service worth to you? Pay what you feel were worth!"

Anyways, here is what the fine people of Austin passed.

Financial and Tax Bill Impact
The City of Austin is one of multiple taxing entities to which property owners pay property taxes annually. Approval of Proposition A dedicates 8.75 cents of the City’s property tax rate revenue to the Austin Transit Partnership to fund implementation of Project Connect. The Project Connect portion of the City’s property tax rate will become part of the City’s property tax rate each year.

For the typical Austin homeowner, the tax bill for the all taxing jurisdictions is based on a tax rate of $2.16 per $100 of value. Proposition A will increase the tax rate by 8.75 cents, or approximately 4%; the impact on total tax bill is also approximately 4%. (See charts below.)

The anticipated annual tax bill impact is based on taxable home value. Taxable home value is the appraised value of a home after property tax exemptions have been applied, such as the homestead exemption or the senior exemption. The estimated tax bill impact of passage of Proposition A is an approximation-based Fiscal Year 2020/2021 property tax rate. This property tax rate reflects assumptions about market and economic conditions and may be subject to change.

2020 Austin Median Home Value (after homestead exemption): $326,368

Home Value Anticipated Annual Impact Anticipated Monthly Impact
$250,000 $219 $18.23
$325,000 $284 $23.70
$500,000 $438 $36.46
$750,000 $656 $54.69


The total tax rate will change from $2.16 per $100 valuation to $2.25 per $100 valuation. The graphic below shows the Proposition A tax rate impact, based on approved rates for Austin ISD ($1.1084), City of Austin ($0.446), Travis County ($0.374359), Travis County Healthcare District ($0.110306), and Austin Community College ($0.1058).

https://austintexas.gov/2020PropA#:~:te ... 0valuation.

[GRID]

Austin is building a full blown light rail system of multiple lines (including subways) among other improvements such as upgrading their DMU Commuter rail line.

I think it would be silly for KC to use and probably exhaust all of its potential revenue streams for transit just to run streetcars down 39th or something. Streetcars are a nice "part" of a regional transit system, but they should co-exist within a much larger, more regional, higher speed, higher capacity, dedicated right of way system of light rail and "real" BRT lines.

Is that just not a possibility? Everybody wants to spend 2-3 billion on new stadiums somehow. If KC can do that, then it should be able to start building a transit system that is a bit more capable than these streetcar lines.

Again, the streetcars are fine, but they need to be complimented with something more robust (rail) and a better bus system too. I barely even see buses anymore when I'm in KC. It was kind of nice seeing the max buses going down broadway. It's nothing like it was. Crown Center would have a bus coming every couple minutes all day long, didn't matter the route, you just caught the first bus that came. Now you can go 30 minutes without even seeing a bus in Crown Center during a weekday.

Just saying I hope KC Is not putting all its eggs in the streetcar basket. And I still keep hearing people talking about streetcars to KCI, Village West, the stadiums and Overland Park. This is an urban tram system, not a regional mass transit system. Need to start figuring out how the trams can co-exisit with regional transit, not extend the trams to far flung places. That's just silly. It's not 1920, there is reason we don't have slow interurban streetcars going for 20 miles anymore.

[GRID]

I guess all I'm saying is that the next vote to fund another major streetcar extension really needs to be a part of much bigger plan than just another streetcar line.

KC has finally gotten a taste of modern transit so I think the mindset has changed. I think the city and region is ready to fund something a bit more comprehensive.

[FlippantCitizen]

In my own insignifigant opinion, I would love to see streetcar from KU Med to TSC using Broadway as the N/S jog between 39th and Linwood being the next priority. If the line does not reach TSC in the initial phase that's fine as long as we set ourselves up for it in the future. Ideally the push for this could be bundled with Independence Ave but we could also focus on expanding BRT there while waiting to see how I70 realignment might shake out as I think this would have implications for the potential Indy line. The North KC extension on Burlington may end up with enough momentum to get done sooner and I think that would also be a high value exentsion to the system. Union Station to UMKC is already underway and I cannot wait for it to be completed. Perhaps in much more distant phases, 18th Street/Southwest Boulevard could help 18th and Vine with connectivity to the Crossroads. Going further North might required politically (and a good idea). Streetcar suburbs to the south might be possible with softening additudes. Crossing the Kansas River would certaintly be a coup.

I think the thing about regional transit or commuter rail is that it won't make sense unless we invest in the network that such a system would connect too. Kansas City is the anchor of this metro. Our focus should be making urban Kansas City a place where people actually interested in urban living can have a high quality of life. This talk of affecting the development patterns of suburban areas with transit options strikes me as incredibly unrealistic given the political geography of these areas. Also a regional rail system is somewhat outside the scope of this discussion. More streetcar lines will be key to Kansas City's future in my opinion. The proof will really be in the pudding once the streetcar begins affecting Midtown. So many minds have already been changed. The more people see it, the more that they will want it. Political consensus on this will come slowly, through people witnessing the positive affects of small peices of progress. When there is a great enough will, there is a way. KC has demostrated that and I think will continue to, though probably incrementally.

[AlkaliAxel]

Probably in the minority here but I still think we'd be alot better off fixing our over-built highway issue (i.e. the loop, etc.) than paying for light rail. We only have money for so many things at a time, so this is the direction I'd go. I think we'd reap more rewards & development for the urban core this way, and it would ironically increase our actual need for light rail, which isn't as great right now. The highways are much more of a hindrance to development and building a core/downtown right now than anything else IMO. It's a much greater need than the need for light rail.

[flyingember]

Probably in the minority here but I still think we'd be alot better off fixing our over-built highway issue (i.e. the loop, etc.) than paying for light rail. We only have money for so many things at a time, so this is the direction I'd go. I think we'd reap more rewards & development for the urban core this way, and it would ironically increase our actual need for light rail, which isn't as great right now. The highways are much more of a hindrance to development and building a core/downtown right now than anything else IMO. It's a much greater need than the need for light rail.

One is a city project, the other a state project.

So they can’t happen at the same time?

[GRID]

Probably in the minority here but I still think we'd be alot better off fixing our over-built highway issue (i.e. the loop, etc.) than paying for light rail. We only have money for so many things at a time, so this is the direction I'd go. I think we'd reap more rewards & development for the urban core this way, and it would ironically increase our actual need for light rail, which isn't as great right now. The highways are much more of a hindrance to development and building a core/downtown right now than anything else IMO. It's a much greater need than the need for light rail.

One is a city project, the other a state project.

So they can’t happen at the same time?

Exactly. Transit and Interstates really have nothing to do with each other, especially in Missouri where there is so little funding for highways and no state funding at all for transit. There are a few examples where massive highway/transit projects are one in the same. The TREX light rail and I-25 rebuild is one in Denver. Something like that would be perfect for I-70. I total rebuild of I-70 with light rail incorporated into the new rebuild. But that would take way more planning, coordination and leadership from multiple cities, counties and state agencies then KC could ever pull off lol.

However, a regional transit plan absolutely should happen at the same time as whatever is going to happen with the downtown freeway loop. Jesus, the downtown freeway loop will take decades to be rebuilt.

KC needs to pass a regional bistate transit tax to fund an expanded central city tram system, a light rail line to the stadiums and eastern suburbs and possibly to Olathe as well and a robust metropolitan BRT and regular bus system to KCI, Village West etc. It's long over due, I think the metro would support it. And Metro KC would likely get hundreds of millions of federal money that goes to other cities now. KC finally got a decent fed grant for the tram system. Cities that invest locally get way more federal money.

It would just suck if if another 20 years, KC has a few more miles of streetcar and that's it. KC could do so much more than that. In 20 years, cities like Austin and Nashville will have 50 miles of light rail and other cities will done major expansions.

(I remember saying this exact same thing in the 90's about Denver, Charlotte, Dallas, Phoenix, Seattle, SLC, Minneapolis etc none of which had hardly any transit at the time. Now look at those cities).

[AlkaliAxel]

I love the streetcar more than most...but the only thing bad about it right now are the wait times at the stops. It's usually takes way too long to wait for it to come to your stop.

The last several times I've used it, people are electing to just walk from Union Station to downtown or vice versa *and beating the streetcar there* before it even arrives and makes it way down the route. I even tried it myself instead of waiting for the streetcar to come, and I beat it there on the walk to Union Station instead of waiting for it.

They probably need another car added to the line, because I'm seeing way too many people choosing to just skip out on it. I'm sure many are more apt to drive next time because of that. I'm sure someone will rant about why "I don't understand how transit works" or something but I'm just sharing my observation over this year using it.

[shinatoo]

I love the streetcar more than most...but the only thing bad about it right now are the wait times at the stops. It's usually takes way too long to wait for it to come to your stop.

The last several times I've used it, people are electing to just walk from Union Station to downtown or vice versa *and beating the streetcar there* before it even arrives and makes it way down the route. I even tried it myself instead of waiting for the streetcar to come, and I beat it there on the walk to Union Station instead of waiting for it.

They probably need another car added to the line, because I'm seeing way too many people choosing to just skip out on it. I'm sure many are more apt to drive next time because of that. I'm sure someone will rant about why "I don't understand how transit works" or something but I'm just sharing my observation over this year using it.

More constructive if you can state the time of day and the day of the week. And what the arrival board said compared to your experience.

For example, Saturday there was a service interruption. Is that when you were waiting?

[flyingember]

I love the streetcar more than most...but the only thing bad about it right now are the wait times at the stops. It's usually takes way too long to wait for it to come to your stop.

The last several times I've used it, people are electing to just walk from Union Station to downtown or vice versa *and beating the streetcar there* before it even arrives and makes it way down the route. I even tried it myself instead of waiting for the streetcar to come, and I beat it there on the walk to Union Station instead of waiting for it.

They probably need another car added to the line, because I'm seeing way too many people choosing to just skip out on it. I'm sure many are more apt to drive next time because of that. I'm sure someone will rant about why "I don't understand how transit works" or something but I'm just sharing my observation over this year using it.

This is a good example of Selection Bias. It's the same argument someone makes when they don't see anyone use a bike lane so we don't need one or a road needs to be widened because you pick the same 30 minutes of time everyone else wants to be on the road.

Assuming it's always slow, that for a 30 minute one way you wait 20 minutes every time. If you get on the train 14 times a week that's 280 minutes of waiting.
The train operates for 9270 minutes per week.

For those 14 times of waiting you're seeing seeing 2% of service time. So even if it's always unreasonably slow for you it doesn't mean anything needs to be done.
You could just be riding the extremely small part of the week that it's slower than normal.