KCRag Forum

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:12 pm Very well put Fang.

I also want to see Streetcar on Independence Ave and even out via BRT or actual rail to Independence MO. But that area is already very built up and bus ridership is high. Our existing transit should be improved but it probably wouldn’t serve as a major catalyst as much new development as Linwood/31.

Yes, Independence Avenue at least to Wilson Avenue. There are opportunities to increase density along this corridor -- especially more retail. People in the neighborhood are always mentioning their desire for more and better retail options. Frequently mentioned desires are a pet store and restaurants. I tried to explain to those who oppose the streetcar line that it would bring more residential density along Independence Avenue. This would increase the likelihood that small businesses could be more viable. There is not a large enough population in the Historic Northeast to support a pet store, or one would have opened by now.

East German light rail. 1990.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CUi_dT0livQ ... _copy_link

Can't remember who said, but I'm starting to agree with whoever said we shouldn't have light rail to the burbs, because screw encouraging living in the burbs. Why continue to make it easier to live in the burbs? We want an urban core. I understand the argument that it will bring them downtown, but I don't see it being worth the huge cost just to let suburbanites get light rail. If we only have a vast, connected system within our urban core- then that should be the desirable place to live. I am coming around to that idea.

Main 81.2
Linwood/31st 75.2
Independence 63.2

Only these three were advanced to NextRail.

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:28 am Can't remember who said, but I'm starting to agree with whoever said we shouldn't have light rail to the burbs, because screw encouraging living in the burbs. Why continue to make it easier to live in the burbs? We want an urban core. I understand the argument that it will bring them downtown, but I don't see it being worth the huge cost just to let suburbanites get light rail. If we only have a vast, connected system within our urban core- then that should be the desirable place to live. I am coming around to that idea.

I'm one of them that also wonder if better off to just focus on rail within urban core (and KCK/NKC). It would promote more contiguous pedestrian scale development within the core cities rather than pockets of commuter rail sprawl. The upside to rail to burbs is that may reduce parking needs downtown and boost more employment - maybe. Commuter rail on existing freight lines to burbs would be worth pursuing but not new LRT lines.

First, the stadiums aren’t that far away — it’s 7-8 miles from KU Med. Also, there’s plenty of density to the Blue River, which is most of the way there. By comparison, Prospect MAX was 10 miles. If we end up phasing this maybe you don’t get to the stadiums with rail now but at least you’ve created a plan to do that while you focus on land use with another KCMO overlay (which happened out of order on Prospect — the overlay work is starting now).

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:28 am Can't remember who said, but I'm starting to agree with whoever said we shouldn't have light rail to the burbs, because screw encouraging living in the burbs. Why continue to make it easier to live in the burbs? We want an urban core. I understand the argument that it will bring them downtown, but I don't see it being worth the huge cost just to let suburbanites get light rail. If we only have a vast, connected system within our urban core- then that should be the desirable place to live. I am coming around to that idea.

Amen! No reason to keep subsidizing service to people who have rejected even basic bus service and have rejected to live in a part of the city where service is readily available.

I guess someone will have to define "suburb" and also how to get KS to contribute to a regional tax without including "suburbs".

earthling wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:13 am

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:28 am Can't remember who said, but I'm starting to agree with whoever said we shouldn't have light rail to the burbs, because screw encouraging living in the burbs. Why continue to make it easier to live in the burbs? We want an urban core. I understand the argument that it will bring them downtown, but I don't see it being worth the huge cost just to let suburbanites get light rail. If we only have a vast, connected system within our urban core- then that should be the desirable place to live. I am coming around to that idea.

I'm one of them that also wonder if better off to just focus on rail within urban core (and KCK/NKC). It would promote more contiguous pedestrian scale development within the core cities rather than pockets of commuter rail sprawl. The upside to rail to burbs is that may reduce parking needs downtown and boost more employment - maybe. Commuter rail on existing freight lines to burbs would be worth pursuing but not new LRT lines.

How will you get suburbs to pay for urban rail without giving them anything

^TDDs working so far. KU Med, riverfront casino aid are other potential sources.

earthling wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:46 pm ^TDDs working so far.

TDD won't work past the current extension is what Dave and others have always said.....

Then perhaps don't expand until there are enough sources along line. And like I said, commuter on existing freight line would be doable but that has its own challenges. Probably would be better though to let infill/redevelopment mostly complete along lines that are added (NkC to UMKC) before expanding. Too much expansion in short time might cause less infill along RCP corridor as TOD interested developers may disperse in pockets if too many miles added within 10 years. Need smart expansion that inspires smart urbane growth/infill, not expansion just for the sake of it.

What we really need is to change KCs attitude toward using bus as well, as smart streetcar expansion occurs over next few decades. Now that Main MAX is running free fare in front of Union Station for a couple years, need to encourage streetcar riders to use it. When streetcar arrives at Union Station, there needs to be a voice announcement that Main MAX is a 'free interim streetcar extender bus' to Westport and Plaza. Paint a colored line from US streetcar stop to MAX stop in front of US, which announcement can note to follow. This will get many bus timid people to give it a try, then they may feel comfortable enough to use from their burbs into city. There is perhaps no better way to promote bus to those timid. All the pieces are in place now.

normalthings wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:49 pm

earthling wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:46 pm ^TDDs working so far.

TDD won't work past the current extension is what Dave and others have always said.....

As a sole source of funding. TDD + regional funding would be a new model for streetcar/MAX. You want the added capital investment, you cover the added cost locally. Region could cover the operating cost. Of course, I’m not the decider…

earthling wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:53 pm Then perhaps don't expand until there are enough sources along line. And like I said, commuter on existing freight line would be doable but that has its own challenges. Probably would be better though to let infill/redevelopment mostly complete along lines that are added (NkC to UMKC) before expanding. Too much expansion in short time might cause less infill along RCP corridor as TOD interested developers may disperse in pockets if too many miles added within 10 years. Need smart expansion that inspires smart urbane growth/infill, not expansion just for the sake of it.

I'm for expanding to NKC, Indy Ave, Linwood/39th, and to UMKC for now, and just allowing infill to happen for 20 years, and then perhaps consider expanding.

I'm concerned that extending too far out from the central part of KMCO will only allow developers the opportunity to develop along transit nodes in what they consider "safer" parts of the Metro. Why build at Linwood and Prospect at all if you can build along Metcalf or Shawnee Mission Parkway?

I'm less convinced about the need for commuter rail to Lee's Summit or Metcalf Avenue. I would need to see some hard numbers for how many cars it would keep out of downtown -- or off roads. If there were a demonstrable connection between a number of reduced parking spaces downtown and commuter rail, then I might be convinced. If it would show how much carbon it would remove from the air, I might be convinced.

earthling wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:53 pm What we really need is to change KCs attitude toward using bus as well, as smart streetcar expansion occurs over next few decades.

Yes. If we are going to meet climate change goals, we have to do this.

An OP city council member tweeted that he wants to see a train down Metcalf. Here we go!

I disagree with the above simply because an urban core only rail proposal is unlikely to be financially viable.

The best way forward is a regional vote for funding transit. JoCo,Wyco,Jackson, Clay and Platte. Jackson County already has a high tax burden, they cannot fund additional expansion alone. Create a master regional plan with proposed frequent bus/rail build outs and then sent it to the voters. Not sure on the specifics, such as if one county doesn't vote for it do we just cut them off from transit service, etc., but it should be regional combined with specific actions to make areas along Max/Streetcar corridors more dense and walkable. Instead of punishing our region for its negative growth patterns, we need to fix it.

A regional system also would work best for everyone, and don't just let a certain gondola enthuiast cloud your vision. It's possible with enough will power and long term plans. In 50 years, imagine getting on a streetcar in Downtown Overland Park and riding up Medcalf, through Shawnee Mission, Rainbow Blvd, py KU Med, up to Main then across the river hitting NKC, Gladstone, Metro North Crossing, Zona Rosa, and then right to your gate at the Mayor Quinton Lucas Terminal at KCI.

(ok that last part was trolling)

FangKC wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:38 pm I'm less convinced about the need for commuter rail to Lee's Summit or Metcalf Avenue.

There would never be a reason for someone from the city to take a streetcar to Lee's Summit or Metcalf. So, extending to there is solely about getting those people DT. But, this just gives incentive to keep living in those suburbs while enjoying the benefits of the urban core. Sure, that would provide some tax revenue for entertainment and restaurants but the goal should be to improve the density of the city and not making it solely an entertainment destination. You'll never get corporations and good professional jobs making the urban core their location without the latter. It's about attracting residents.

Lee's Summit: warehouse jobs
Metcalf: high paying tech, finance, etc jobs

Metcalf has the jobs that downtown needs access to if it is to continue growing

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:09 pm I disagree with the above simply because an urban core only rail proposal is unlikely to be financially viable.

The best way forward is a regional vote for funding transit. JoCo,Wyco,Jackson, Clay and Platte. Jackson County already has a high tax burden, they cannot fund additional expansion alone. Create a master regional plan with proposed frequent bus/rail build outs and then sent it to the voters. Not sure on the specifics, such as if one county doesn't vote for it do we just cut them off from transit service, etc., but it should be regional combined with specific actions to make areas along Max/Streetcar corridors more dense and walkable. Instead of punishing our region for its negative growth patterns, we need to fix it.

A regional system also would work best for everyone, and don't just let a certain gondola enthuiast cloud your vision. It's possible with enough will power and long term plans. In 50 years, imagine getting on a streetcar in Downtown Overland Park and riding up Medcalf, through Shawnee Mission, Rainbow Blvd, py KU Med, up to Main then across the river hitting NKC, Gladstone, Metro North Crossing, Zona Rosa, and then right to your gate at the Mayor Quinton Lucas Terminal at KCI.

(ok that last part was trolling)

Fine with that if it's smartly done (meaning that it doesn't encourage sprawl) and is only just streetcar and not actual rail.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:46 pmMetcalf has the jobs that downtown needs access to if it is to continue growing

Metcalf has the jobs that downtown needs if it is to continue growing