Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

[GRID]

So this is back to being strictly a commuter rail line? Has to be with the low ridership projections. For this investment to even begin to make sense, these transit lines need offer fixed service all day long in both directions and not just be one way rush hour trains moving the same people riding the buses today.

where did you get that? no one said anything about peak-only service.

Just guessing by the ridership projections. Very low for a 20 mile line that will be frequent all day service.

[DaveKCMO]

sanders was on KCUR's up to date yesterday, giving a very detailed update of the current plan: http://kcur.org/post/return-commuter-ra ... son-county

[Pork Chop]

sanders was on KCUR's up to date yesterday, giving a very detailed update of the current plan: http://kcur.org/post/return-commuter-ra ... son-county

Sanders does an excellent job and it's worth time listen to this episode. I am very excited to see the plan come to a vote and of course hope it does. It will be a game changer for the region and esp. Jackson County/KC

[DaveKCMO]

indeed, pay attention to his comments about a proposed zoning board that would try to reign in greenfield development in favor of developing along the east and southeast rail lines. this was the first i've heard of it and i'd be very pleased if such a thing actually came into being.

[Pork Chop]

indeed, pay attention to his comments about a proposed zoning board that would try to reign in greenfield development in favor of developing along the east and southeast rail lines. this was the first i've heard of it and i'd be very pleased if such a thing actually came into being.

Yes, it's this type of info that makes it worthwhile to listen to. Another example is that the vote is not just for the extension of the Katy Trail, but to also have more trails throughout the county that connect to the extension. Then, it would be possible to get on a trial almost anywhere in Jackson County and go all the way to St. Louis.

It seems to be an ongoing process to have the most well thought out plan possible before going to the voters.

I also to have to say that Sanders is such an asset to Jackson County and I hope he succeeds with this vote and is able to move on to a higher office in Missouri. His type of thinking and style would do the state some good.

[earthling]

Is good to see this momentum but is it too premature to vote before the downtown streetcar is a physical reality? Would think it would have a much better chance passing once everyone can actually see streetcar running in city core, or at least under construction.

[DaveKCMO]

Is good to see this momentum but is it too premature to vote before the downtown streetcar is a physical reality? Would think it would have a much better chance passing once everyone can actually see streetcar running in city core, or at least under construction.

countywide question is polling in the 60s and the streetcar is a done deal. now is the time.

[earthling]

^good the hear, get it done.

[kcmiz]

If I am a resident of Kansas City, Sanders' Commuter Rail Plan in its present form is a non-starter. As it stands, the only stop in KCMO city limits is in the River Market. This plan does nothing to spur TOD in the core. In fact, it promotes further sprawl to the suburbs. You can still have your 3,000 sf McMansion in Eastern Jackson County and ride the train to the big city for work.

Not only that, this plan effectively robs the rest of the city of its financing tool to expand the streetcar. If the county passes 1% sales tax to pay for commuter rail, the likelihood of convincing residents of a new TDD to tax themselves an additional 1% to pay for a streetcar extension is greatly diminished. Sanders has said he would not double tax the current Downtown TDD, but can he afford to let other future TDDs opt out to pay for streetcar expansion (i.e. Old Northeast, Plaza-Midtown)? Probably not.

If Sanders wants this plan to pass, he has to sweeten the deal for residents of KCMO. They make up half the population of Jackson County and they vote. Frankly, trails and buses won't cut it. So how does he do it? The railroads won't grant access to the Trench. Instead, take the commuter rail down Truman Road with several stops in the core to promote TOD. This will be more expensive than using the MO River bottoms track, but it will actually spur development in the core and get suburban commuters downtown rather to the River Market. He could save costs by excluding Grain Valley and Oak Groove from the first phase of the East Line.

[DaveKCMO]

try selling truman road to that neighborhood of economically disadvantaged people (probably of color) whose homes you'd have to plow over to make that work. you don't save that much by cutting out oak grove and grain valley, certainly not enough to reconstruct truman road for how many miles?

that ship has sailed.

[kcmiz]

try selling truman road to that neighborhood of economically disadvantaged people (probably of color) whose homes you'd have to plow over to make that work. you don't save that much by cutting out oak grove and grain valley, certainly not enough to reconstruct truman road for how many miles?

that ship has sailed.

No homes would have to be plowed over. The street is seven lanes wide the entire stretch. You sell it to them by explaining the economic investment the train would bring to their neighborhoods (increase in job opportunities and increased transportation mobility). Seems like an easy sell to me. That neighborhood has been starving for investment since at least the 1960s.

[grovester]

If I am a resident of Kansas City, Sanders' Commuter Rail Plan in its present form is a non-starter. As it stands, the only stop in KCMO city limits is in the River Market. This plan does nothing to spur TOD in the core. In fact, it promotes further sprawl to the suburbs. You can still have your 3,000 sf McMansion in Eastern Jackson County and ride the train to the big city for work.

Not only that, this plan effectively robs the rest of the city of its financing tool to expand the streetcar. If the county passes 1% sales tax to pay for commuter rail, the likelihood of convincing residents of a new TDD to tax themselves an additional 1% to pay for a streetcar extension is greatly diminished. Sanders has said he would not double tax the current Downtown TDD, but can he afford to let other future TDDs opt out to pay for streetcar expansion (i.e. Old Northeast, Plaza-Midtown)? Probably not.

If Sanders wants this plan to pass, he has to sweeten the deal for residents of KCMO. They make up half the population of Jackson County and they vote. Frankly, trails and buses won't cut it. So how does he do it? The railroads won't grant access to the Trench. Instead, take the commuter rail down Truman Road with several stops in the core to promote TOD. This will be more expensive than using the MO River bottoms track, but it will actually spur development in the core and get suburban commuters downtown rather to the River Market. He could save costs by excluding Grain Valley and Oak Groove from the first phase of the East Line.

Interesting points, I'd always assumed the 1% commuter rail tax would either augment or replace any future local funding options, as Dave has said that any other lines would not be able to be funded like downtown was due to lack of property values and/or sales tax base. I was kind of hoping for a streetcar slush fund.

[chaglang]

You sell it to them by explaining the economic investment the train would bring to their neighborhoods (increase in job opportunities and increased transportation mobility). Seems like an easy sell to me. That neighborhood has been starving for investment since at least the 1960s.

I understand the streetcar as an economic catalyst, but is that true of commuter rail? From an outsider's perspective I'd guess that the economic strength of streetcars is people stopping and getting off and shopping/whatever. That's not necessarily true of commuter rail, where the stops are infrequent. My main experience with this mode was in Boston, where the commuter rail shot through neighborhoods like a freight train.

[chingon]

countywide question is polling in the 60s

Seriously? That is the most exciting thing I've heard in a long time.

As an aside, as someone who will vote for this and will likely never or very rarely use anything except the bike trails...I kind of read this plan as a "long game" strategy in the power/population game versus Johnson County, and I think it pays of big in the next 10-25 years.

[DaveKCMO]

you nailed it.

[smh]

As an aside, as someone who will vote for this and will likely never or very rarely use anything except the bike trails...I kind of read this plan as a "long game" strategy in the power/population game versus Johnson County, and I think it pays of big in the next 10-25 years.

1000x Agreed. Only thing I'd plan to use is rail service to the stadia if offered and bike trails.

[Pork Chop]

As an aside, as someone who will vote for this and will likely never or very rarely use anything except the bike trails...I kind of read this plan as a "long game" strategy in the power/population game versus Johnson County, and I think it pays of big in the next 10-25 years.

1000x Agreed...

I totally agree as well. It pits Jackson County's vision of using brownfields for redevelopment against Johnson County’s vision of sprawl and greenfield development.

[mean]

As an aside, as someone who will vote for this and will likely never or very rarely use anything except the bike trails...I kind of read this plan as a "long game" strategy in the power/population game versus Johnson County, and I think it pays of big in the next 10-25 years.

My thoughts exactly.

[earthling]

If 1 or 2 of commuter rail lines come through on MO side, it will be interesting to see if JoCo gains any momentum. Some who were pushing the I-35 line 10 years ago were frustrated that every time JoCo councils change, they had to re-explain and start over. If MO side goes first, JoCo might show more interest but I'm guessing at the State level, they won't want to ship workers downtown. Many JoCo'ers in our downtown office strongly want it, topic comes up often.

[shinatoo]

Low interest on bonds, 10th of the cost of building it from fresh track. Iron hot, strike it.