Downtown Baseball Stadium

[beautyfromashes]

I also think the EV will be quickly developed with five over ones if the stadium goes to the CR. I think it could develop into something similar to the west side of downtown.

Fantasyland.

[Rusty Irish]

Two other small market MLB teams in urban locations with little in the way of on site parking, Cleveland and San Diego's stadiums are a footprint of 12 acres. I'd guess at a minimum for the stadium then you're talking the demolition of the star building (4.7 acres) and then everything as previously suggested between Oak and Cherry and Truman and 17th simply just to build the park.

Hard to see where any room for a "ballpark district" is. Maybe it's Cordish selling further expansion at P&L somehow. Maybe the Royals don't have the cash or don't want to spend it either and Cordish is their "partner".

I think this "ballpark district" will be nothing more than the Royals hope to build something like Ballpark Village in St Louis. A small baseball stadium oriented retail building. And the Royals hope to develop some towers as well. But that's not happening unless they partner with a major developer.

So basically, they are not going to build this "district" everybody is envisioning. Downtown KC can't support another P&L District. I can see the Royals building the stadium, maybe a parking garage or two to the east that are shared with apartment towers and a very small building to house a few bars and restaurants somewhere.

Yeah I think that's the path we are headed down. Sad as I envisioned a bonafide mixed use district in EV with towers that blend into the existing fabric of Downtown.

[GRID]

Most of the things you listed are west of Grand. Why would they go away for this project?

Because everything within a 5 block radius will be dedicated to that park. Hotels, parking garages, empty lots, sports bars…
There will be no place for any one story buildings (except PNL) because when you can tear down your building and make $1000s for 81+ games and additional events, that makes many uses obsolete. So, it will be a district of Hampton Inns, Residence Inns, vanilla sports bars and giant garages. This is why it should be in EV. There’s room for those things there. You’re not wrecking anything else. Create a 21st century area all you want. The pushing out of businesses for cookie cutter development will be pervasive.

But you have the ENTIRE crossroads to continue to build out what you are talking about. A stadium district in the very northeast corner of the Crossroads would enhance the rest of the Crossroads and make the entire district grow with more infill and restorations. You have to give up a few businesses for the overall good of the entire district. A very large district that still has a ton of room for growth. A stadium in EV will not have the same impact on the greater Crossroads area.

[GRID]

Two other small market MLB teams in urban locations with little in the way of on site parking, Cleveland and San Diego's stadiums are a footprint of 12 acres. I'd guess at a minimum for the stadium then you're talking the demolition of the star building (4.7 acres) and then everything as previously suggested between Oak and Cherry and Truman and 17th simply just to build the park.

Hard to see where any room for a "ballpark district" is. Maybe it's Cordish selling further expansion at P&L somehow. Maybe the Royals don't have the cash or don't want to spend it either and Cordish is their "partner".

I think this "ballpark district" will be nothing more than the Royals hope to build something like Ballpark Village in St Louis. A small baseball stadium oriented retail building. And the Royals hope to develop some towers as well. But that's not happening unless they partner with a major developer.

So basically, they are not going to build this "district" everybody is envisioning. Downtown KC can't support another P&L District. I can see the Royals building the stadium, maybe a parking garage or two to the east that are shared with apartment towers and a very small building to house a few bars and restaurants somewhere.

Yeah I think that's the path we are headed down. Sad as I envisioned a bonafide mixed use district in EV with towers that blend into the existing fabric of Downtown.

But that's why I think EV is a bad idea. It will end up being a stadium and a ballpark village retail building and maybe in 10 years a new midrise apartment tower.

Put the stadium in the east crossroads and you can build the stadium and small ballpark village building which could compliment the surrounding crossroads area. Why would people go to EV when there is no game? They won't. Would they go to a stadium development in the east crossroads if there is no game? Yes they would. They would also go there for events at T-Mobile etc.

You are just able to build something that can blend into the urban fabric of the CBD and the core of the crossroads. Plus, you are closer to Union Station, Crown Center, 18th and Vine etc. The park will connect the stadium to the P&L District and the convention center. All driving people to the stadium area all the time. Nobody is going to go to EV for anything other than a royals game.

But you will lose a handful of current businesses around the star building.

[DColeKC]

Most of the things you listed are west of Grand. Why would they go away for this project?

Because everything within a 5 block radius will be dedicated to that park. Hotels, parking garages, empty lots, sports bars…
There will be no place for any one story buildings (except PNL) because when you can tear down your building and make $1000s for 81+ games and additional events, that makes many uses obsolete. So, it will be a district of Hampton Inns, Residence Inns, vanilla sports bars and giant garages. This is why it should be in EV. There’s room for those things there. You’re not wrecking anything else. Create a 21st century area all you want. The pushing out of businesses for cookie cutter development will be pervasive.

But I thought baseball stadiums don't spur economic development?

This stadium will not automatically start making the entire surrounding area high value property where developers want to build hotels and sports bars. I'm sure over time, some of that will happen but it's going to happen anyway. The cap, as mentioned by others makes everything along Truman high value property and very highly sought after for tower development.

The currently happening and vibrant parts of Crossroads will be unaffected and will love to see the additional traffic. We need to be serious here and stop acting like this area is something it's not.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

Paseo West is an island once again surrounded by highways, is mostly industrial etc and it has a lot of urban social issues that like it or not are a problem. (homeless, crime etc). It's disconnected from the downtown, crossroads, river market etc despite it's proximity. However it will be perfect for parking for a stadium in EV.

Agreed there. The loop is a joke and stadiums create parking.

The crossroads location is totally different. Especially after the 670 park is built. The stadium will be on the DIRECT edge of the urban fabric of the core of both the crossroads and the CBD. There will be plenty of parking in those areas, but

There's plenty of parking by the East Village site, probably more. And, it's all office use so can all be used for gamedays, whereas, there will be limited gameday parking available in the P&L garages, especially when there's also an event at T-Mobile Center at the same time.

any additional parking can be built to the east up against the highways with no harm done.

So, Paseo West turns into parking surrounded by highways and that's super harmful but East Crossroads turns into parking and that's "no harm done" because it's up against highways?

I also think the EV will be quickly developed with five over ones if the stadium goes to the CR. I think it could develop into something similar to the west side of downtown.

The guy that constantly tells us how KC can't develop anything says that a site that's been empty for decades will suddenly be filled up the second the Royals decide not to go there. These arguments just make no sense.

[GRID]

I also think the EV will be quickly developed with five over ones if the stadium goes to the CR. I think it could develop into something similar to the west side of downtown.

Fantasyland.

Fantasyland is thinking EV will be built out with towers and Paseo West will become something other than parking lots. EV will be just as dead as it is now unless it's right before or after a game where everybody walks across the bridges to the Paseo West parking lots.

If that land is not land banked for a stadium then why would they not sell it to developers? It's a perfect area for low-rise residential if the owners stop trying to get Denver or San Diego prices for the lots. And if they don't then the land is never going to develop anyway.

[TheLastGentleman]

In my experience the east village site is pretty close to the rest of the loop. It is IN the loop. The loop is about a mile wide, so anything within it is at most half a mile from the streetcar. The attitude that EV is “over there” is just not true, and it shows how the urban core is imagined as a city-sized shotgun house, where nothing exists outside a narrow corridor. Is the EV empty and a little spooky? Sure, but that’s because there’s a baseball stadium sized hole in it!

[TheBigChuckbowski]

But I thought baseball stadiums don't spur economic development?

"Hotels, parking garages, empty lots, sports bars…" is what high value economic development looks like to you?

[GRID]

So, Paseo West turns into parking surrounded by highways and that's super harmful but East Crossroads turns into parking and that's "no harm done" because it's up against highways?

You are going to get some new parking regardless. I think both sites have the same amount of parking available within walking distance but the Crossroads site is closer to the streetcar. Why would EV have more existing parking? The big downtown garages are all several blocks from both locations. I think you get more with the CR site with garages like the Kauffman Center.

And I didn't say "east crossroads turns into parking lots". I said building a garage or two up against the 670/71 interchange which will never develop into anything but what it is now (industrial/halfway houses), is not going to hurt the crossroads.

[KCPowercat]

I'm just talking the grand side. Again just one of many reasons this is a bad location, not the biggest reason

Don't get me wrong, I remain skeptical largely because KC is never very good at the details and for many of the reasons you've mentioned, but I am also open to hearing more.

Sounds like we are going to have to

[KCPowercat]

. I hate tearing things down, but geez

Well you put up a pretty convincing argument to not tear down stuff when the other site already has everything torn down but geez is a pretty good argument.

That area is not really urban, it's half parking lots and very few of the buildings are worth getting worked up over.

EV is all parking lots so what are we fighting for again on this site?

. I mean they are sort of old by midwestern standards, but the crossroads is full of buildings like that and I'm not sure they are worth holding up what may be a game changer project for downtown KC.

Well since we are tailking a Midwest city here makes it applicable. Definitely will be a game changer. Some of us are just afraid it turns into another losing game for our city. Any body around for awhile has seen this story play out over and over.

Still waiting on what the Royals come up with and exactly where the stadium would go and what might have to be torn down.

Definitely agree gotta wait for the plan I just can logically see this fitting without severe disruption

[TheBigChuckbowski]

You are going to get some new parking regardless. I think both sites have the same amount of parking available within walking distance but the Crossroads site is closer to the streetcar. Why would EV have more existing parking? The big downtown garages are all several blocks from both locations. I think you get more with the CR site with garages like the Kauffman Center.

Even if the stadium is between Grand and Oak, the Kauffman Center is 4 blocks, if it's east of Oak, that's 6 blocks (same distance as the streetcar from East Village). That's 1,000 spaces (if there isn't a PAC event on the same night and their calendar is pretty full). Just going off of a quick glance at a parking map, there's over 4x that in under 4 blocks from East Village just in currently available public parking and there won't be competing events in the way.

And I didn't say "east crossroads turns into parking lots". I said building a garage or two up against the 670/71 interchange which will never develop into anything but what it is now (industrial/halfway houses), is not going to hurt the crossroads.

There's room to build a "garage or two" in the East Village without tearing down any buildings. So, again, why is West Paseo being leveled but East Crossroads isn't? And why is West Paseo a problem but East Crossroads isn't?

[KCPowercat]

So, Paseo West turns into parking surrounded by highways and that's super harmful but East Crossroads turns into parking and that's "no harm done" because it's up against highways?

You are going to get some new parking regardless. I think both sites have the same amount of parking available within walking distance but the Crossroads site is closer to the streetcar. Why would EV have more existing parking? The big downtown garages are all several blocks from both locations. I think you get more with the CR site with garages like the Kauffman Center.

And I didn't say "east crossroads turns into parking lots". I said building a garage or two up against the 670/71 interchange which will never develop into anything but what it is now (industrial/halfway houses), is not going to hurt the crossroads.

Because there is more structured parking right now closer is why it has more existing parking

[GRID]

Even if the stadium is between Grand and Oak, the Kauffman Center is 4 blocks, if it's east of Oak, that's 6 blocks (same distance as the streetcar from East Village). That's 1,000 spaces (if there isn't a PAC event on the same night). Just going off of a quick glance at a parking map, there's over 4x that in under 4 blocks from East Village just in currently available public parking and there won't be competing events in the way.

There's room to build a "garage or two" in the East Village without tearing down any buildings. So, again, why is West Paseo being leveled but East Crossroads isn't? And why is West Paseo a problem but East Crossroads isn't?

Huh? So there is only one garage 4 blocks from the star building? Many of the larger garages in downtown are just as close to the star building as they are to east village. Even the big city garage on Oak would only be like 4 blocks from the Star building site.

And this kind of stuff being replaced by a large structured parking garage (hopefully part of mixed use development) doesn't bother me. There are plenty of areas in KC these businesses can move to.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0931425 ... ?entry=ttu

And you end up with a ballpark that is in a better location.

[DColeKC]

But I thought baseball stadiums don't spur economic development?

"Hotels, parking garages, empty lots, sports bars…" is what high value economic development looks like to you?

Goal posts keep being moved here. So only specific types of development count now? I was joking because I don't think you're going to see this type of widespread development outside of the immediate area we're talking about here. You'll see be able to sit with 5 other people outside of Tannin's and stare at full parking lot attached.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

Huh? So there is only one garage 4 blocks from the star building? Many of the larger garages in downtown are just as close to the star building as they are to east village. Even the big city garage on Oak would only be like 4 blocks from the Star building site.

The Crossroads has very few garages and the P&L garage availability will ebb and flow based on the night of the week and T-Mobile Center events. There's very little existing garage parking under 4 blocks from the East Crossroads site, aside from P&L.

And this kind of stuff being replaced by parking (hopefully part of mixed use development) doesn't bother me. There are plenty of areas in KC these businesses can move to.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0931425 ... ?entry=ttu

And you end up with a ballpark that is in a better location.

What does West Paseo look like on Google Maps?

[DColeKC]

Even if the stadium is between Grand and Oak, the Kauffman Center is 4 blocks, if it's east of Oak, that's 6 blocks (same distance as the streetcar from East Village). That's 1,000 spaces (if there isn't a PAC event on the same night). Just going off of a quick glance at a parking map, there's over 4x that in under 4 blocks from East Village just in currently available public parking and there won't be competing events in the way.

There's room to build a "garage or two" in the East Village without tearing down any buildings. So, again, why is West Paseo being leveled but East Crossroads isn't? And why is West Paseo a problem but East Crossroads isn't?

Huh? So there is only one garage 4 blocks from the star building? Many of the larger garages in downtown are just as close to the star building as they are to east village. Even the big city garage on Oak would only be like 4 blocks from the Star building site.

And this kind of stuff being replaced by a large structured parking garage (hopefully part of mixed use development) doesn't bother me. There are plenty of areas in KC these businesses can move to.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0931425 ... ?entry=ttu

And you end up with a ballpark that is in a better location.

As I mentioned in my drawings, the surface lots in between the long lines building and holiday Inn to the east of T-Mobile is a perfect location for parking garages. Close proximity to stadium and arena. Tucks them in to a spot that isn't heavily traveled by pedestrians.

[beautyfromashes]

But I thought baseball stadiums don't spur economic development?

Who said that?!? Baseball stadiums and all the ancillary buildings that come with them are like a giant nuclear bomb of development. You just don’t want to drop it on a neighborhood that’s already there. You get one shot to get the most synergy for your buck. Drop it in the EV and you get maximum growth return. Put it in EC you get return on top of negative return.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

As I mentioned in my drawings, the surface lots in between the long lines building and holiday Inn to the east of T-Mobile is a perfect location for parking garages. Close proximity to stadium and arena. Tucks them in to a spot that isn't heavily traveled by pedestrians.

Same logic applies for East Village.