KCRag Forum

Sunday nights at YJ's some of the city's best jam after hours while the restaurant closes shop.  You can sit on the block w/ yr coffee or snack and hear Oscar Williams, Arnie Young et. al form impromptu combos.  It is living jazz. 

ComandanteCero wrote: i don't think it's going to happen (atleast in the near future), mostly because 18/Vine's future is in the hands of a a select number of middle/senior aged middle class African Americans who have their own vision of what 18/Vine should be (which seems to want to dissociate itself with any part of African American culture that might have developed after 1979). 

I would say their frame of reference for African American culture is dated before the 1940s judging by what that area looks like. Although, I do find it ironic that the National Negro Leauge Museum store is filled with hip-hop interpolations of Negro League gear.

I have no problem with having upscale eateries, but more must be done to create an actual neighborhood. Further, the infrastructure is already built for the 18th and Vine proper neighborhood. The next step must be to create better urban development on top of 18th and Vine to supercharge it as it seems those "in charge" of the area choose to ponder its future rather than help create it. Build some midrise condos along the Paseo (one of the most beautiful urban parkways I've seen). Build a more flashy entertainment area on grass patch that is 12th and Vine. Build spec infill for unique and interesting local businesses. Also, TIF that neighborhood with new stuff until you can't TIF anymore.

We have enough problems getting people to come "downtown", why are people going to trek to 18th and Vine.  Especially folks from the metropolitan area. The invisible barrier of Troost holds people back. What can bridge years and years of unfair cultural bias, besides Authur Bryants.

  There has to be something done about the crime in that area.It will never sustain
businesses unless crime is under control.In mid july I took a detour and was on the corner
of woodland and 18th when three guys jumped out from behind me and threw things at my
vehicle,trying to break my windows so they could rob me.

tjokskalle wrote:   There has to be something done about the crime in that area.It will never sustain
businesses unless crime is under control.In mid july I took a detour and was on the corner
of woodland and 18th when three guys jumped out from behind me and threw things at my
vehicle,trying to break my windows so they could rob me.

damn. 

that really is a pretty rough area.  i don't really see that changing, either. 

chrizow wrote:

damn. 

that really is a pretty rough area.  i don't really see that changing, either. 

Again, this area of KCMo isn't peaches and cream, but there are many parts of Midtown (not to mention large stretches of SKC and the East Side) that have much more criminal activity than lowly 18th and Vine. It looks scary because there is no population density and no urban built environment. I don't see one example of assault as ground for calling a neighborhood "rough." There are violent crimes daily in and around the Plaza and no one would call that a rough neighborhood. I've been randomly assaulted in downtown L...it happens in lots of non-scary places. Bring more people and better built environment to 18th and Vine and the reputation will certainly change.

well, like i said before, the tiny stretch of shiny new 18th and Vine stuff may not itself be a hive of crime, but  that island of relative normalcy is immediately bordered on the north by one of the worst projects in town (as featured in Hood 2 Hood  ) and the neighborhoods within a few blocks east and south of this area are some of the most impovershed in town.  also, the Vine, 23rd, and 12th street gangs all basically claim this general area.  you're kidding yourself if you think this is an isolated incident.  the 18th and Vine district sits on the western edge of probably the most violent area of town that i can think of. 

it's not hopeless, but 18th and Vine is going to have to connect a lot more with people to succeed. 

chrizow wrote: well, like i said before, the tiny stretch of shiny new 18th and Vine stuff may not itself be a hive of crime, but   that island of relative normalcy is immediately bordered on the north by one of the worst projects in town (as featured in Hood 2 Hood  ) and the neighborhoods within a few blocks east and south of this area are some of the most impovershed in town.  also, the Vine, 23rd, and 12th street gangs all basically claim this general area.  you're kidding yourself if you think this is an isolated incident.  the 18th and Vine district sits on the western edge of probably the most violent area of town that i can think of. 

it's not hopeless, but 18th and Vine is going to have to connect a lot more with people to succeed. 

Do you know a lot about these gangs or something? What neighborhoods are they running and what are doing to run them? There's not much to run there. There's no people around...only a few apartment complexes and light industrial businesses. There's probably more drug dealing in the government district than anywhere near 18th and Vine. I guess you could commit crimes against people that get lost in this neighborhood at night or commit vandalism, but the only human element around seems to be a few hundred residents tucked away in their homes. It felt more like a derelect part of NKC than some scary urban 'hood where I'd get mugged. I walked all over this neighborhood in the daytime and felt less threatened than walking in Lawrence.

well, very few areas in KC "feel" scary when you're walking around them...because people usually aren't really around.  i think you're correct that the area immediately around 18th and Vine is relatively depopulated, especially to the W/NW/SW, but the general area (say, a couple square miles) is teeming with problems.  ask anyone that lives in that area on/off Benton, Euclid, Brooklyn, Wabash, Prospect, etc...

i had relatives at about 20th and Brooklyn for a long time and there was all kinds of stuff going on in that vicinity.  people literally drive around in cars and look to stir shit up.  my cousins got jumped/robbed constantly, bulletholes in the houses and cars, etc.  it's pretty dirty over there.  i don't want to sound like a scurred suburbanite, but the area just E and SE of there is about as bad as it gets in KC.

chrizow wrote:i had relatives at about 20th and Brooklyn for a long time and there was all kinds of stuff going on in that vicinity.  people literally drive around in cars and look to stir shit up.  my cousins got jumped/robbed constantly, bulletholes in the houses and cars, etc.  it's pretty dirty over there.  i don't want to sound like a scurred suburbanite, but the area just E and SE of there is about as bad as it gets in KC.

There are multiple people in mutliple KC 'hoods driving around trying to stir things up right now-- not just 18th and Vine area. If the problem was that bad; places like the Blue Room and Peach Tree wouldn't even be open because of it. I'm not saying it's a nice neighborhood, but it's hard for me to believe this melancholy stretch of post-urbanism has even as much crime as Main Street does after dark.

all i'm saying is that people are (justifiably) afraid of the area E and SE of the district, which has absolutely impacted its success.  if it were west of 71, it would probably be 300% more successful.  the restaurants down there aren't exactly raking it in.  if it weren't for the Gem and the Negro Leagues museum, the place probably would've been shuttered (again) two years ago.

chrizow wrote: all i'm saying is that people are (justifiably) afraid of the area E and SE of the district, which has absolutely impacted its success.  if it were west of 71, it would probably be 300% more successful.  the restaurants down there aren't exactly raking it in.  if it weren't for the Gem and the Negro Leagues museum, the place probably would've been shuttered (again) two years ago.

Many white people are afraid of any neighborhoods with large numbers of minorities. So is life...

Of course 18th and Vine would be more successful if you plopped it down in the River Market or somewhere like that. My argument for its lack of success is tied to the exclusivity behind the area. The criteria for opening a business out there is far too elitist to be successful. Get some coffee shops, diners, salons, clothing stores...bring people on the streets. There is a wide area between getting payday loan stores, cell stores and holding out for the next Peach Tree.

There are 2 new developments nearing completion along Paseo @ 19th and
on 19th Street @ Highland across from the MM Foundation.
I didn't have my camera but these look good.

I wish they would put ALL of the new construction on 18th Street to create a critical mass,
add some vibrancy to the area and eliminate the ugly blight along the main road as a sign the
area is coming back but sadly in TYPICAL KC fashion they building each new project in
desparate places from each other.

Michael® wrote: I wish they would put ALL of the new construction on 18th Street to create a critical mass,
add some vibrancy to the area and eliminate the ugly blight along the main road as a sign the
area is coming back but sadly in TYPICAL KC fashion they building each new project in
desparate places from each other.

IMO, this is the apex of urbanism. Neighborhoods need to have that sense of vibrancy where there is a dense amount of businesses, offices, people, services, transit, etc. Westport and Penn would be a good example or this sort of apex or even 18th and Wyandotte seems like an emerging one. I don't know what these are referred to in urban planning, but they almost act like a catalyst and centerpiece for the entire neighborhood.

This idea is what I'd like to see on 18th...interesting retail storefronts stretching all around with offices, hotels, and residential above each storefront. It's not rocket science, but we must get away from the lingering sense of suburban parking fetishism (as some say) and strive to create tight, dense blocks of new development.

My alma mater is Lincoln Prep, which most certainly qualifies as the neighborhood south and east of there. I used to walk down to Arthur Bryant's twice weekly, and would often take strolls around the jazz district when it was still an interesting ruin, full of ghosts. So bear in mind, this was when the city was definitely worse crime wise than it is today. Nothing was there except for a single biker bar and a fringe gas station. I never had a single problem. Then again, I guess I never had anything to take.

For a lot of people, the area around former Municipal Stadium brings back fond memories. If 18th and Vine backers can tap into that, the area can succeed. I remember going to Municipal to see the A's/Royals and parking in people's front yards. Trying to reconnect those memories will go a long way. I have never seen any advertising for 18th and Vine? Get Berstein Rand involved here. Got to get the word out, more exposure. You cannot rely on people just wandering into the area for the aforementioned reasons. Give the masses reasons to go there and more people on the streets, less crime. I'm not sure, but would this area benefit from some type of visible security?

What is on the Muni Stadium site now?

Some type of housing, I believe. Since I don't reside in KC, not quite sure what's there.

Yeah, a new housing development.  There are probably 8 houses on two sides of a street that curves through the site.  On the southeast corner of the block there is a historical marker telling the story of the stadium.

There are the Jazz Lofts and a few other decent looking developments around and on Vine. I am on Vine street 8 times a week south of 18th up to 18th and it it seems to be the safest street in that area of town. Lots of good stuff going on over there.