Dec. 22 Press Conference

[49r]

^^^^

Ah, the old "Bread and Circus" argument.  Which is a good one, but not quite what we are talking about here.  This is purely economics, and what we need to take a look at is whether $1BB (as some folks say the latest plan will cost) will pay off in terms of cash flow to the city as a result of having two professional teams playing in renovated 30 year old stadia.

My guess (and this is purely a guess) is that $1BB is too much.  Especially given the unfortunate location of the K in suburbia, and IMO, what should be done is...get this...nothing.

It isn't like the stadia are on the verge of collapse or anything, they are adequate, and paid for.

[jerry12]

The construction companies, unions, and muni  bond peddlers will all donate large sums to the campaign.  Freedom, Inc. will be bought off.  The Chambers of Commerce will of course support it because they unquestionably support all tax increases and anything they can equate to "econonmic development".  They Star will support it because the sports page sells more newspapers than the front page.  Talk radio will support it because if either the Royals or the Chiefs left their listeners might be forced to get a life.  Local TV news will support it because sports, murder and weather is all they do.  

Anyone who opposes this corporate welfare scheme will be labeled as unenlightened fools who just don't understand economics.  And what is the economic incentive to oppose it.  It will cost us about $100 a year for 25 years but is anyone going to spend a lot of time to save that amount.  

In the end Lamar Hunt will pocket a few million more each year and David Glass will buy a few more mediocre ballplayers.  

[aknowledgeableperson]

#1  This tax increase is to maintain and improve property owned by the County.  Failure on the County's part to do this puts its assets at risk.  I am not happy with it but given the alternative it is better than other options.
#2  This tax increase does not take funds from a government operating budget.  A big majority of TIF projects do take funds away for a government operating budget to pick up the slack of revenue shortfalls.  This shortage caused by TIF's has had a major negative effect on the City's budget.  And tax abatements granted by the city also affect other government bodies that the abated property is part of, such as school district, library, county, etc.
#3  I wouldn't call TSC in my backyard.  If it is then so is DT since the distance is about the same from my house.  I am not bashing the improvements to Bartle, PAC, and even the hotels (not happy but realize the need to support Bartle).  I was against Sprint for various reasons, one being that the hotel fee (tax) was usually for convention and tourism and the Sprint project was not in that spirit since it was not connected to Bartle - if it was I would have supported it.  If these TIF projects brought in the money they said they would then no problem but that is not the case - they have been a drain on the City budget.

[KCMax]

I can't vote on this (unless I carpetbag it like chef is willing to do), but if I could, I'd have to give this a big thumbs down. I'm ready to vote for modest improvements to Arrowhead, and I even think I would vote for modest improvements to Kauffman as much as I want downtown baseball, but the amount they are asking for is ridiculous. And I still want to see more specifics as to what they want. Chef makes fun of the Copaken drawings for downtown baseball, but the drawings I've seen for TSC improvements are basically the same complex with a restaurant and some spotlights. What is this money going towards exactly?

[jerry12]

#1  This tax increase is to maintain and improve property owned by the County.  Failure on the County's part to do this puts its assets at risk.  I am not happy with it but given the alternative it is better than other options

If I own a home, pay someone to live there, can never sell it or do anything with it,  it is not an asset, it is a liability. 

[49r]

Exactly!

This amount of money is roughly the equvalent to what it would cost to build TWO NEW STADIUMS (perhaps not either one downtown), and it is being used to "maintain and improve" existing property?

[kcdcchef]

#2  This tax increase does not take funds from a government operating budget.  A big majority of TIF projects do take funds away for a government operating budget to pick up the slack of revenue shortfalls.  This shortage caused by TIF's has had a major negative effect on the City's budget.  And tax abatements granted by the city also affect other government bodies that the abated property is part of, such as school district, library, county, etc.

thank you, this is called common sense.

Exactly!

This amount of money is roughly the equvalent to what it would cost to build TWO NEW STADIUMS (perhaps not either one downtown), and it is being used to "maintain and improve" existing property?

how do you figure? they are asking for 575m , which, over the life of the tax, will be 750m, which, will not build 2 new stadiums. pittsburgh, just spent 850m to build 2 new ones, both on empty land from the previous stadium parking lots. where we gonna build two new ones??

I can't vote on this (unless I carpetbag it like chef is willing to do),

i did not say i was going to. i just said i could. although, i must admit, it is tempting.

[49r]

how do you figure? they are asking for 575m , which, over the life of the tax, will be 750m, which, will not build 2 new stadiums. pittsburgh, just spent 850m to build 2 new ones, both on empty land from the previous stadium parking lots. where we gonna build two new ones??

I said "roughly"   :D

[shaffe]

will people quit saying that a baseball stadium in the midwest cannot be built in the urban core for $350M.  jesus people, just look 4 hours to the east.  a baseball stadium DT can be built, probably fairly easily, for $400M.

$30M from the state
$225-275 from the city/county <---i'm pretty sure this is about what they're getting in the current ballot measure?
$100 from the team
$50 from various private sources(naming rights?)/TIF bonds/tax breaks/etc.
----------
$405-430M

and that, boys and girls, is what this $225M(ish) should be spent on.  granted, it's much more complicated than that, but i would safely bet that $400M would get us a park if the cards are building new busch for a smidgen over $350.

[KansasCityChiefs]

will people quit saying that a baseball stadium in the midwest cannot be built in the urban core for $350M. jesus people, just look 4 hours to the east. a baseball stadium DT can be built, probably fairly easily, for $400M.

$30M from the state
$225-275 from the city/county <---i'm pretty sure this is about what they're getting in the current ballot measure?
$100 from the team
$50 from various private sources(naming rights?)/TIF bonds/tax breaks/etc.
----------
$405-430M

and that, boys and girls, is what this $225M(ish) should be spent on. granted, it's much more complicated than that, but i would safely bet that $400M would get us a park if the cards are building new busch for a smidgen over $350.

Actually, That's pretty well put. As much as I like Kauffman, A new downtown stadium would be very, very exciting.

[kcdcchef]

$100 from the team

david glass is not worth a billion, he is worth less than, he is one of mlb's poorest owners. the man is not going to put over 10% of his net wealth into a franchise that has lost money 3/4 of it's 36 year exsistence.

$50 from various private sources(naming rights?)/TIF bonds/tax breaks/etc.

so, you are willing to give up the name of the greatest man the city has ever known?

[KCMax]

H&R Block Field at Kauffman Stadium has a nice ring to it.

[beautyfromashes]

will people quit saying that a baseball stadium in the midwest cannot be built in the urban core for $350M.  jesus people, just look 4 hours to the east.  a baseball stadium DT can be built, probably fairly easily, for $400M.

$30M from the state
$225-275 from the city/county <---i'm pretty sure this is about what they're getting in the current ballot measure?
$100 from the team
$50 from various private sources(naming rights?)/TIF bonds/tax breaks/etc.
----------
$405-430M

and that, boys and girls, is what this $225M(ish) should be spent on.  granted, it's much more complicated than that, but i would safely bet that $400M would get us a park if the cards are building new busch for a smidgen over $350.

St. Louis gets a new stadium and we get a retread.  Why does this always seem to happen?

[skim82]

Chef, the more and more I read your posts, the more I think you have some deep rooted connection to keep two shitty stadiums up and running.  It's almost as if you have family members that live @ the TSC.... Give it up man.  They're shitty, there's no two ways about it.... 

[KCPowercat]

ST. Louis had a stadium in worse condition than Kauffman.  We are kind of cursed with a well built stadium (depending on how you look at it).

Plus our "leaders" seem to have a tie to not building new and we have an owner who isn't willing to put any funds into a stadium...hence we get a rehab.

[kcdcchef]

Chef, the more and more I read your posts, the more I think you have some deep rooted connection to keep two shitty stadiums up and running.  It's almost as if you have family members that live @ the TSC.... Give it up man.  They're shitty, there's no two ways about it.... 

i am actually logging in from their house now and all...........

the reality of it is we built 2 great parks. they have bad location. arrowhead is far superior to a lot of newer football stadiums, and same with kauffman.

those of you, the majority here, just need to accept it as fact that you are in the minority. i wanted kc to save the downtown jones store, and revamp it as a macy's or nieman marcus, or anything, ditto with the old dillards, but i was in the minority.

my affection for the tsc has nothing to do with family working there. all that does is get me discounted food when i am there. the location is shitty, i agree. but building it downtown gives no gurantee it helps downtown, none. i live in pittsburgh, and i can tell you building pnc and heinz, which are nice facilities, did nothing for their urban core, particularly the life of the neighborhood. my wife and i dine at the pnc outback, which is built in thier stadium, once a month. and it is always 3/4 empty. an outback, those places are always busy. same with the twist, an upscale martini bar built near the stadiums, we have been 4 times, and never anyone there. when we went to pirates, steelers, and panthers games, yes, you had lots of people downtown those days. but much like the tsc, they bolt when it is over, they do not hang out.

a lot of you on this board have this illusion of grandure that building kauffman in the north loop will suddenly bring downtown to life because there will be 17k milling around 81 days a year. it will stay dead near the ballparks the same way it does near blue ridge cutoff now. they will bolt after the games, without going to all of these places of business nearby. trust me, i went to cleveland and baltimore games, new stadiums, in revitalized downtowns, everyone gets the fuck away after it is over, and kc will be no different.

you guys need to accept as fact it is dead, a april defeat will only solidify one thing.............that they are still locked up til 2014, that is a long was away, and the chance of defeat is slim at best, jacko voters vote yes on civic improvements ALL of the time. and they will for this too.

i am the voice of reason here, and keep on hatin' for it. that is fine. mkb has a lot of spine, she is the mayor helping to lead the p&l charge, sprint center, same with our county leaders, they are all for the future of downtown. absolutely none of them are for losing two gems, and that is what they are. all during the chiefs chargers game, all i hear the announcers say, well, 4 times, is how magnificent they both are. and i also heard them say that the voters of the kc area "will get a chance to vote for massive improvements at these marvelous stadiums come april, i do not see how they can vote no!"

so, yeah, i have people on the national side, local goverment, city goverment, county goverment, and state goverment, saying keep kauffman and arrowhead, and there are a couple of hundred on here, well, more like 30 or so, that are gung ho on this. so, yeah, i am on the losing side because my mother tears tickets at both parks.

[KCMax]

the reality of it is we built 2 great parks.

That have detoriated. Let's build another great park. Downtown.

[staubio]

Chef, you sure are influenced by sports announcers.

[shaffe]

chef, did you ever look at the sportsnation poll in espn the mag last week?  the K has regressed to a middle of the pack stadium (16 of 30), at least according to "national people".

[aknowledgeableperson]

And after a rehab of the K it just might land in the top 5.

If you have accepted that we shouldn't rehab the K then why should we rehab Arrowhead?  They are the same age and roughly the same condition.  Why not build a new football stadium with a retractable roof for a Super Bowl?