Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:06 am
The fact we are having this conversation is incredibly exciting.
Just a question, don't you think it would be a little confusing for someone unfamiliar with the system?earthling wrote:Could note by color line rather than transit mode. That is, Orange is Main, Green is Troost, Blue is Broadway, Red or whatever for Indy Ave/NE Side. No matter the mode, you note which color line to take.
MAX buses clearly show color line in front as do the shelters, with map. If there is no rail in front of shelter, cant be streetcar.earthling wrote:Is not bad idea to use MAX for better express on Main but given tight funds and need for better service on other lines, doubling up on Main is a bit overkill. If no new funding for more MAX lines is in sight, move it to Bway. It needs consistent 10-15min service badly, especially for heart of Westport to downtown/plaza and Armour/Bway investments going on.
Also would give visitors more direct access to Westport, SW side, Uptown theatre and more city overall. My vote is move MAX Orange line to Broadway. Also place bikeshare stations at major crosstown drags on each line, like Linwood, 39th at Bway/Main.
I could see streetcar would be tougher on Bway, but MAX shelters are not much different than others. If anything, better basic bus service is needed along that stretch. Getting to heart of Westport is a pain for visitors and downtowners too.DaveKCMO wrote: re: broadway... don't count on it. setting aside the (still very real) nutter issues, most of broadway is a boulevard and that would require the city and parks department to collaborate effectively on the streetcar. no thanks!
earthling wrote:^I'm under the assumption MAX and streetcar would not be on same line, per..
MAX buses clearly show color line in front as do the shelters, with map. If there is no rail in front of shelter, cant be streetcar.earthling wrote:Is not bad idea to use MAX for better express on Main but given tight funds and need for better service on other lines, doubling up on Main is a bit overkill. If no new funding for more MAX lines is in sight, move it to Bway. It needs consistent 10-15min service badly, especially for heart of Westport to downtown/plaza and Armour/Bway investments going on.
Also would give visitors more direct access to Westport, SW side, Uptown theatre and more city overall. My vote is move MAX Orange line to Broadway. Also place bikeshare stations at major crosstown drags on each line, like Linwood, 39th at Bway/Main.
I just mean that if you're not specifying transit mode, it could get VERY confusing. If the red, orange and blue lines are streetcar. Why would somebody think that the green line might be a bus?Could note by color line rather than transit mode.
I understand what you mean. I think you just include a little symbol next to the name of the line to indicate bus or streetcar. The map with the lines on it though would be designed to convey that each of the lines (streetcar or bus) operated at some certain level of frequency (i.e., 10-minute headways).TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
I just mean that if you're not specifying transit mode, it could get VERY confusing. If the red, orange and blue lines are streetcar. Why would somebody think that the green line might be a bus?
I don't see any reason to have a streetcar in midtown that can't move people at least as fast as MAX does today.DaveKCMO wrote:
The more realistic scenario would be to change one or the other within the corridor to compliment each other, as has already been suggested (make one with fewer stops, while the other stops frequently). this would merit serious study. my initial take is that you'd want to maximize development opportunities with the streetcar, so you'd make that stop frequently while MAX becomes truly express.
...
perhaps eliminate main MAX entirely and use that money to boost regular local bus service on broadway and south of 51st. use of those special buses means they can't be swapped out with anything else if there's a shortage.
http://metrotransit.org/maps-schedulessmh wrote:I understand what you mean. I think you just include a little symbol next to the name of the line to indicate bus or streetcar. The map with the lines on it though would be designed to convey that each of the lines (streetcar or bus) operated at some certain level of frequency (i.e., 10-minute headways).TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
I just mean that if you're not specifying transit mode, it could get VERY confusing. If the red, orange and blue lines are streetcar. Why would somebody think that the green line might be a bus?
Absolutely. I don't mean to imply you can't have colored bus lines and colored streetcar lines and that's probably exactly what I'd do.smh wrote:I understand what you mean. I think you just include a little symbol next to the name of the line to indicate bus or streetcar. The map with the lines on it though would be designed to convey that each of the lines (streetcar or bus) operated at some certain level of frequency (i.e., 10-minute headways).TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
I just mean that if you're not specifying transit mode, it could get VERY confusing. If the red, orange and blue lines are streetcar. Why would somebody think that the green line might be a bus?
Best idea so far. Downtown, take SW Blvd to Broadway and eventually connect to 3rd & Grand.flyingember wrote: Another idea is to take MAX all the way to SW Tfwy and just let it fly though.
The street designed for getting through midtown as quickly as possible is SW Trafficway after all. it could serve the west side of the plaza which is a rather dense residential area and goes by a number of office towers.
In the early 2000s they tried to name a new BRT line in Boston the "Silver Line". They put it on the subway maps and confused everyone.TheBigChuckbowski wrote:Just a question, don't you think it would be a little confusing for someone unfamiliar with the system?earthling wrote:Could note by color line rather than transit mode. That is, Orange is Main, Green is Troost, Blue is Broadway, Red or whatever for Indy Ave/NE Side. No matter the mode, you note which color line to take.
I know that if I was in another city and was going to ride the "green line" and knew it was a part of the streetcar system, I would expect a streetcar. If I got to the stop and there weren't any tracks and only busses, I would definitely think I was in the wrong place. It wouldn't even be a matter of confusion, I would completely think I was at the wrong stop. If I think I'm in the wrong place, I'm not just getting on the bus and hoping it goes to the right place.
I've been in Boston. 2009. it wasn't confusing.chaglang wrote:In the early 2000s they tried to name a new BRT line in Boston the "Silver Line". They put it on the subway maps and confused everyone.
Good to know it took less than 9 years to figure that out.flyingember wrote:I've been in Boston. 2009. it wasn't confusing.chaglang wrote:In the early 2000s they tried to name a new BRT line in Boston the "Silver Line". They put it on the subway maps and confused everyone.
if you can't figure out that the silver line isn't a train...
and they didn't "try" to call it that. go look at the subway map
http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/subway/
you have a valid pointTheBigChuckbowski wrote:Absolutely. I don't mean to imply you can't have colored bus lines and colored streetcar lines and that's probably exactly what I'd do.smh wrote:I understand what you mean. I think you just include a little symbol next to the name of the line to indicate bus or streetcar. The map with the lines on it though would be designed to convey that each of the lines (streetcar or bus) operated at some certain level of frequency (i.e., 10-minute headways).TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
I just mean that if you're not specifying transit mode, it could get VERY confusing. If the red, orange and blue lines are streetcar. Why would somebody think that the green line might be a bus?
But, it seemed like the original stated purpose wasn't to differentiate between the mode of transit at all. That's what I had a disagreement with.
What on that map indicates that the Silver Line is a bus? The map is labeled "Subway Map". The subway-subway and BRT-subway connections are represented the same way. All of the other bus routes are represented differently than the Silver Line, which is represented the same way the subway lines are. And nothing indicates that you have to leave the subway station to make the transfer- which in most (if not all) cases you do. That's a confusing map, IMHO. As a noted advocate of elaborate transit signage, surely you can appreciate that.flyingember wrote:I've been in Boston. 2009. it wasn't confusing.chaglang wrote:In the early 2000s they tried to name a new BRT line in Boston the "Silver Line". They put it on the subway maps and confused everyone.
if you can't figure out that the silver line isn't a train...
Jesus. You are nails on the chalkboard sometimes. I know what they called the stupid thing; I lived there for 10 years. They tried (and apparently are still trying) lumping the new BRT line in with the trolley and subway lines and it people found it confusing because they weren't the same type of transit. Which gets us back to the original topic.flyingember wrote: and they didn't "try" to call it that. go look at the subway map
http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/subway/
no, it's not. the map is labeled the rapid transit/key bus route map.chaglang wrote: What on that map indicates that the Silver Line is a bus? The map is labeled "Subway Map"
Sorry, the tab is clearly labeled "Subway Map".flyingember wrote:no, it's not. the map is labeled the rapid transit/key bus route map.chaglang wrote: What on that map indicates that the Silver Line is a bus? The map is labeled "Subway Map"
Sorry, look again. The Silver Line isn't labeled as anything. Every other mode is addressed by name. But it's represented in the same way as the subway is.flyingember wrote: if you review the legend you learn exactly which colors are the subway, which are commuter rail, and using my powers of reasoning, I must assume the rest are not subway or commuter rail
That's an awesome attitude.flyingember wrote: if someone is confused it's because they didn't spend time to find out the system they were trying to used.
The subway lines are named after colors. Busses are numbered. It's been that way for decades. The BRT is named after a color. That the maps and signage suck is just the icing on the cake. I'm glad you navigated the system with ease, but I can tell you from living there (and giving directions to lost tourists) that the name causes confusion.flyingember wrote: at the end of the day that Boston don't show it as a bus line explicitly is their biggest failure, not what it's called