KCRag Forum

GRID wrote:
Even freaking OKC is building quite an impressive urban core bike trail system, plus they are developing quite an impressive kayaking community and infrastructure (which I know is not really possible in KC).

Why not? We have 2 big beautiful rivers and a lot of smaller kayakable ones nearby.

chingon wrote:

GRID wrote:
Even freaking OKC is building quite an impressive urban core bike trail system, plus they are developing quite an impressive kayaking community and infrastructure (which I know is not really possible in KC).

Why not? We have 2 big beautiful rivers and a lot of smaller kayakable ones nearby.

it's not that straightforward. the river is optimized for barge traffic

http://rivermiles.com/mr340/paddlers-guide/

flyingember wrote:

chingon wrote:

GRID wrote:
Even freaking OKC is building quite an impressive urban core bike trail system, plus they are developing quite an impressive kayaking community and infrastructure (which I know is not really possible in KC).

Why not? We have 2 big beautiful rivers and a lot of smaller kayakable ones nearby.

it's not that straightforward. the river is optimized for barge traffic

http://rivermiles.com/mr340/paddlers-guide/

First, honestly those are pretty easy to avoid obstacles on an enormous river with almost no other traffic. All rivers have hazards, wing-dykes or not. And, there's no barge traffic or related obstacles on the Kaw, or the Blue for that matter.

GRID wrote:

warwickland wrote:Here's a pretty awful and old twin cities bike trail "map."


http://www.tcgreenways.org/wp-content/u ... ails-1.jpg

point being that you have a higher chance of actually commuting to downtown st. paul or minneapolis on a trail, even from a suburb. let's not kid ourselves when it comes to the importance of having off street trails as part of living in a modern, livable region. and of course minneapolis has some pretty kick ass heavily used "bike boulevards" that lace in between the trails and st. paul has tons of basic bike lanes.

Yea, and the katy trail is VERY nice out in St Charles and it connects up to some great trails in west county. StL has Forest Park which is amazing. I think it's time for StL to redo the riverfront though and make is more user friendly for recreation.

Yeah, I agree. Everything happens at a glacial pace in Missouri, urban or rural.


http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5219/538 ... eaf4_z.jpg

Another trestle is currently being rehabbed for a bike trail as well.


http://nickidwyer.typepad.com/.a/6a0120 ... a10970b-pi

warwickland wrote: Yeah, I agree. Everything happens at a glacial pace in Missouri, urban or rural.

We could always use a pro-bike/ped Kit Bond.

chingon wrote:

flyingember wrote:
it's not that straightforward. the river is optimized for barge traffic

http://rivermiles.com/mr340/paddlers-guide/

First, honestly those are pretty easy to avoid obstacles on an enormous river with almost no other traffic. All rivers have hazards, wing-dykes or not. And, there's no barge traffic or related obstacles on the Kaw, or the Blue for that matter.

have you ever been on a float trip that didn't involve drinking?

that's the kind of obstacles you'd find if we opened up bigger rivers to floating. alcohol and a major river don't mix.

I could see the upper Blue River working where there's enough water. The Kaw, not so much.

flyingember wrote:The Kaw, not so much.

Why not? It's big, slow, shallow, easy to navigate, 100% public, and has plenty of sand bars and islands for camping and fishing.

I have drunk plenty of booze on the Kaw and the Mo. Never had a problem. And kayakers generally don't drink. Much.

chingon wrote:

flyingember wrote:The Kaw, not so much.

Why not? It's big, slow, shallow, easy to navigate, 100% public, and has plenty of sand bars and islands for camping and fishing.

Undertow?

Basing Missouri river policy on the barge industry is stupid. Recreation has much greater potential economic value. My brother is a conductor for Burlington Northern. His route is KC to Lincoln. That takes him right along the river bank. He says he never sees barges on the river. At most a couple a year. And he is on the river four to six times a week for hours at a time.

The current stupidity is all based on politics. Farmers are scared of change. Politicians pander to them for votes. They don't have to be rationale. They just want votes.

My guess is a $500,000 media campaign could turn the situation around in a year by energizing urban voters to pressure politicians. But no one seems to be interested in ponying up the money.

chingon wrote:

GRID wrote:
Even freaking OKC is building quite an impressive urban core bike trail system, plus they are developing quite an impressive kayaking community and infrastructure (which I know is not really possible in KC).

Why not? We have 2 big beautiful rivers and a lot of smaller kayakable ones nearby.

I always thought it was because the MO river is too dangerous (fast moving etc). If it's not a problem then why does almost nobody do it.

It's not the size of it. I just kayacked in Pittsburgh right in the heart of downtown and there had to be hundreds of others doing it. You are on the same rivers as huge tour ships, tons of bridges etc.

Same thing in Philly with the Schuylkill River (not sure about the Deleware). Ton and tons of people kayaking and biking / running along the entire corridor of that river. Very busy bike trails on both sides of river, ped overpasses etc.

You even see it in Wichita, but pretty much never in KC. Just figured it had to do with the rivers there.

I agree with GRID on this one. But I can kind of understand how urban recreation has been put to the backburner until now. Seems like its one of those areas that is going to require bottom-up movement (which is happening) before city elders take notice.

here's a good writeup of how despite being so big, how the river changes
http://www.rivermiles.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1174414713

sure, there's people with the skill to navigate it but I'd say these people are the extreme minority.

a Ozarks River is small enough that in the majority of times one is in trouble it's not far to shore. The worst river obstacle in the Ozarks is within 10 feet of shore or during a flash flood when one shouldn't even be on the water.

the Blue River is better but it hasn't been a floating river for decades because of pollution along it and they channelized a bunch of it.

The Missouri River would be a better motor boating river to begin with. Once you see people out who can provide a safety net you'll see more kayakers and canoers.

the other half is the need for more public access points. If you put in at Parkville you need to stay near Parkville.

I wonder if putting less emphasis on dredging for barges and channelization would make the river more or less friendly for boaters.

In other words, is part of the current problem the fact that the river isn't managed to promote recreation?

knucklehead wrote:I wonder if putting less emphasis on dredging for barges and channelization would make the river more or less friendly for boaters.

In other words, is part of the current problem the fact that the river isn't managed to promote recreation?

in a manner of speaking. the river is naturally wide, shallow and full of obstacles. it was so variable in depth that one had to constantly find the depth before channelization.

more natural with less depth would result in more flow. if you build dams and locks to slow it down that means at the current size that it backs up somewhere and forms a lake. to go more natural wider you have to figure out where to widen the channel

here's an old map showing what the river used to be in the 1870s and how much space it took up.

http://www.geospectra.net/lewis_cl/kans ... hart2s.gif

My kids in Pittsburgh. There is no reason why KC couldn't have some of this going on...

But...barges.

Wait, I got it! The Missouri is too polluted, unlike the pristine waters of the Ohio, the Monangahela and the Allegheny...or the Columbia and Willamette, for that matter.

Or whatever. All that matters is that:
IT CAN BE DONE...we love our cars too much, our rivers are too spread out, our city government is too incompetent, our dating scene is too bad!

PS - GRID, for as much wailing as you do about tourists in "KU crap", your kid is in Mizzou stuff every time you post a picture of him on the internet...

chingon wrote: PS - GRID, for as much wailing as you do about tourists in "KU crap", your kid is in Mizzou stuff every time you post a picture of him on the internet...

LOL. busted!

chingon wrote: PS - GRID, for as much wailing as you do about tourists in "KU crap", your kid is in Mizzou stuff every time you post a picture of him on the internet...

Yea, he does wear MU crap a lot. Guess why? He says it helps people at school and this area in general understand he's not from kansas. Dead serious about that. He hates that everybody thinks he is from Kansas (they don't for long). I don't even care anymore. It's a lost cause and he will eventually cave. I think everybody from KC does.

The difference is that even though he knows that people will think he's from KS, he still will not show up at any local sporting event decked out in MU gear or even with an MU cap. Nats games, Caps games etc. He thinks people showing up to Royals games (in KC or elsewhere) in full blown KU (or MU) gear is retarded, just like I do.

Now if he’s 30 or 40 years old and wearing MU crap head to toe at aiporst and drives around the suburbs with MU crap all over his car. I’ll be like “seriously?”

I was in Philly this weekend taking photos for a client and there was a family of five walking near the tourist stuff in center city and they were all decked out in red and I finally saw they were simply tourist from Nebraska. Reminded me of KS people.

Anyway, I'm about to deck out in red myself. Gotta go watch a first place MLB team and and I'm taking a train to get there! Sorry, had to rub that in.

Get that urban recreation stuff going. KC needs it and the area has the rivers and parks to make it happen. Just needs the leadership.