KCRag Forum

kcjak wrote: I'm with you -sometimes I don't even bother finishing what I start to type because of the single-mindedness on here some times.  The only way the P&L would be a success to some people on here is if every store front was a Flying Saucer and they outlawed young people trying to get drunk and have fun.  It sucks to not be a target demographic.

You miss the point.  I am all for the success they have had with the young people trying to get drunk demographic.  WooHoo!  But that alone is clearly not going to keep the other eight blocks of the district above water. 

chrizow wrote: like i said, the Living Room and bar configuration does afford a unique nightlife and gathering amenity.  is it a large step in restoring downtown KC to its former glory?  not in my opinion.  we used to have a working, breathing, 24-hr city down there.  now we rely on Cordish or AEG to bring people downtown for MMA matches, radio-station concerts, or sports-related gatherings.  hey, that's great, and a nice aspect to have in a holistic downtown environment, but it's not the heart of the city, and never will be, no matter what people from tulsa say about it.

No what you said was it didn't restore the heart of the city.  My example is just one where it is returning as the heart of the city.

LenexatoKCMO wrote: This has been discussed ad nauseum here before - the retail block was completed just before the market slowed, but retail developments aren't meant to be leased after they are built.  If Cordish had the mustard to pull it off, those spaces should have been leased before the recession was even on the horizon.  The timeline just doesn't work for Cordish to use the "recession alibi" - their ship had sailed before that excuse became viable.  

So they would've opened and closed.

mean wrote: Nobody's blowing it off, I don't think, just saying it hasn't really done and probably won't ever really do what some of us hoped it would. I'll happily give them the nightlife mall and the Midland and AMC as the entertainment part of "world class dining and entertainment" but I don't think Famous Dave's, Chipotle, Gordon Biersch, Maker's Mark, Flying Saucer, and Bristol make for world class anything. They're all good things to have, and I'm glad they're there, it's just a little disappointing.

I think you are hiding behind the "world class" term.  Did you really buy the fact that people from Tokoyo would be coming here after you saw Cordish's plans?  Every development has cheaper options for dining....do you have an example in another city that would have more closely resembled your dream setup?

Obviously it is bringing more people downtown, and that's commendable. It has changed the perception of downtown KC among a certain subset of folks not only in the suburbs but also other regional cities, and that is an important step. Ultimately I just wish that the dining and residential and retail parts of the world-class entertainment, dining, residential and retail development had delivered. Or had delivered faster.

...and I think that is still coming.  Residential was always promised as a future development....with the exception of the one tower that Funk killed even though Cordish was going to back the TIF with their own funds.  I too wish and hope the retail and dining continue to grow.

LenexatoKCMO wrote: This has been discussed ad nauseum here before - the retail block was completed just before the market slowed, but retail developments aren't meant to be leased after they are built.  If Cordish had the mustard to pull it off, those spaces should have been leased before the recession was even on the horizon.  The timeline just doesn't work for Cordish to use the "recession alibi" - their ship had sailed before that excuse became viable. 

retail is dying in the strongest developments in the country....while I agree it wasn't all "economic downturn" that prevented cordish from signing retail (it was more the unknown of the KC downtown market...and if they would have interviewed the "typical kc resident" their sheer hatred of downtown)....we might be in a strong position to sign some future retail with ready to go spaces in a new development that does draw regionally and has some nice starts in things like the Garment District store.

KCPowercat wrote:I think you are hiding behind the "world class" term.  Did you really buy the fact that people from Tokoyo would be coming here after you saw Cordish's plans?  Every development has cheaper options for dining....do you have an example in another city that would have more closely resembled your dream setup?

No, I certainly would not have expected people from Tokyo vacationing in KC instead of NYC because of the P&L regardless of what magic Cordish pulled. But I don't think it is that much to ask for something like a celeb chef concept. Hell, today we have Peter Grunauer and Lidia Bastianich restaurants right next to each other less than a mile away! I would be inclined to call those world class gets, or at least damn near it. Yet Cordish couldn't get anything better restaurant-wise than a few chains not unlike what you'd find at Village West? How is that not disappointing to you? Look, I'm not panning the whole thing or calling it a failure, but whatever "world class" dining might mean, the offerings at P&L are not it, and that makes me sad.

KCPowercat wrote: Tk...Define shit ton of money...let's see the figures you are working with.

for starters you have $180 million in loans from the city in addition to the property tax revaluation Cordish got.

i think it's great there are decent amenities for the couple thousand residents around it. overall, it was a good investment for the city and downtown. however, it isn't doing what it needs to do to make downtown a destination in and of itself. It's clear their restaurant game was just to leech off the Sprint Center's events and anticipated pro sports franchise-- not stand alone. build the convention hotel and suddenly the fate of many P&L establishments begins to improve.

i find it particularly interesting that KC added interesting, popular, and unique food establishments such as Westside Local, Julian, Grunauer, Glace, WC&B in this economy while most nights the shiny restaurants on 14th Street sit empty.

I already said I want more out of the dining....I just always took "world class" to be one of those same old marketing terms and never gave it a 2nd thought...I didn't base my opinion of the project on meeting that criteria, as subjective as it might be.  

I'm a simple man...they gave me my grocery store, my theatre, Bristol....and some fun new bar concepts and a fun central gathering place for this whole city....I have great dining already around downtown and to the plaza...them taking Lidia from the freighthouse building or Colby from Westport would have been a wash to me (although I would much rather walk to those places).

trailerkid wrote: i find it particularly interesting that KC added interesting, popular, and unique food establishments such as Westside Local, Julian, Grunauer, Glace, WC&B in this economy while most nights the shiny restaurants on 14th Street sit empty.

If those places would have been added to P&L, those who love them would suddenly call them fake and loathe them in many cases...just look what Peachtree has become.

mean wrote: No, I certainly would not have expected people from Tokyo vacationing in KC instead of NYC because of the P&L regardless of what magic Cordish pulled. But I don't think it is that much to ask for something like a celeb chef concept. Hell, today we have Peter Grunauer and Lidia Bastianich restaurants right next to each other less than a mile away! I would be inclined to call those world class gets, or at least damn near it. Yet Cordish couldn't get anything better restaurant-wise than a few chains not unlike what you'd find at Village West? How is that not disappointing to you? Look, I'm not panning the whole thing or calling it a failure, but whatever "world class" dining might mean, the offerings at P&L are not it, and that makes me sad.

Cordish doesn't have the restaurant connections to make this happen. I'm not even asking for world-class. I'm asking for KC-class. The fact is P&L food doesn't even hold up to KC standards. that's the #1 reason there aren't more asses in the seats down there any given night. why drive past Rivermarket, Brookside, Westport, Westside, Plaza, Midtown, Crossroads to get to a P&L restaurant? there's a reason people don't do it: quality.

KCPowercat wrote: I already said I want more out of the dining....I just always took "world class" to be one of those same old marketing terms and never gave it a 2nd thought...I didn't base my opinion of the project on meeting that criteria, as subjective as it might be.  

I'm a simple man...they gave me my grocery store, my theatre, Bristol....and some fun new bar concepts and a fun central gathering place for this whole city....I have great dining already around downtown and to the plaza...them taking Lidia from the freighthouse building or Colby from Westport would have been a wash to me (although I would much rather walk to those places).

i get this. however, you're forgetting the massive South Loop wasn't redeveloped so the anemic downtown population would have a place to watch a movie and buy a gallon of milk. the point of P&L was to become a retail, dining, and entertainment destination for the entire region. right now it is only an entertainment destination. that's all i'm saying.

I agree...it has room for much growth. 

kcjak wrote:  The only way the P&L would be a success to some people on here is if every store front was a Flying Saucer and they outlawed young people trying to get drunk and have fun.  It sucks to not be a target demographic.

Nope, just something that isn't a drain on the city's budget.

And yes I know how TIF's work but given the city's budget problems it needs 100% of development revenues, something to cover the debt load as promised by the city leaders at the time.  That is what makes it a success or failure, covering your costs.

aknowledgeableperson wrote: That is what makes it a success or failure, covering your costs.

Well, 'covering costs' is one, of many, different mechanisims by which success or failure may be judged. 

"Effectiveness in bringing people back downtown" may be another indicator.  In which case, P&L has been a wild success. 

KC-wildcat wrote: "Effectiveness in bringing people back downtown" may be another indicator.  In which case, P&L has been a wild success. 

who is going downtown exclusively for P&L outside the nightlife programming that runs on weekends?

Why don't all of you people step back and take a deep breath it's going to be fine.

Who cares why they are coming....they are coming and hence some moving downtown.  Also they come down for midland and amc as well.

trailerkid wrote: who is going downtown exclusively for P&L outside the nightlife programming that runs on weekends?

I realize these boring white people may not meet your criteria of who should be downtown but the P&L District has, it appears, brought them downtown.

http://www.inkkc.com/galleries?/2010/06 ... t-the.html

KCPowercat wrote: Who cares why they are coming....they are coming and hence some moving downtown.  Also they come down for midland and amc as well.

because the nightlife offerings represent a very limited use (late evenings/early morning Thu/Fri/Sat). a limited use nightlife/special event neighborhood is not the bill of goods KC/MO was sold.

Highlander wrote: I realize these boring white people may not meet your criteria of who should be downtown but the P&L District has, it appears, brought them downtown.

http://www.inkkc.com/galleries?/2010/06 ... t-the.html

the Jones pool operates in the daylight hours, but it is a nightlife operation similar to Mosaic or any of their other night clubs. my argument is Cordish hasn't created a diversified district that is a destination outside of the party/nightlife scene.