KCRag Forum

clay chastain now has a rival for the most far-out transit proposal in the region.  unfortunately, this one apparently has the backing of a county executive.  but i have to wonder if he has consulted with anybody with actual experience in transit planning.  ps - transystems doesn't count since they've obviously got an advocacy stake in this fantasy proposal.

I like the idea it's a step in the right direction!

enough wrote: clay chastain now has a rival for the most far-out transit proposal in the region.  unfortunately, this one apparently has the backing of a county executive.  but i have to wonder if he has consulted with anybody with actual experience in transit planning.  ps - transystems doesn't count since they've obviously got an advocacy stake in this fantasy proposal.

i agree that the intent to have the feds to cover the entire capital cost is a fantasy, especially since they didn't apply for ARRA funds (which could have been 100% match). as for the merits of commuter rail, we'll have to agree to disagree. ultimately, it will create demand for KCATA, the streetcar (if that ever comes to fruition), bicycle facilities, and car-sharing.

regardless, they've got a long way to go before this ever gets on a ballot. with the recession and the COMBAT election coming up, i don't foresee a vote for at least a year or two. remember that regionally-funded transit has polled better than locally-funded transit.

3 billion to widen 70 from downtown to 435 to four lanes each way?  Yea. OK. Sure.   That would cost well under a billion, probably closer to 500 million.  You could widen 70 clear to 470 for under a billion I would bet.  They are rebuilding a much more intense stretch of 64 in StL for like 600 million.

Anyway.  I drove from Blue Springs to downtown for 8 years.  Most trips (AM or PM) were 20-30 minutes tops.  435 on the east is rarely even congested. bla bla bla.

KC is not congested enough for commuter rail and there is still the problem of not having a CBD or RCP fixed rail or efficient BRT spine.

I just don't see people driving to a park and ride, waiting the 10-15 minutes for a train, taking a 30-45 minute train ride (if there are no delays caused by freight etc) to union station, then walking up to Main street to catch a bus to downtown or midtown or walking to crown center offices, either of which would add another 10-15 minutes.  So 1-1.5 hour commutes in KC?  Seriously?  I don't think so.

People do that here in DC where commutes in the same corridor can take 1-2 hours and parking is either non-existent or 10-20 dollars a day.  Why would people do that in KC when they can drive in from the furthest out suburbs in less than 30 minutes and have an abundance of parking that is free to 4 dollars a day?

But hey, it's better than nothing.  It's a start.  It might get something going in the city like LRT, street cars etc.  You know, something that will encourage people to live in the city, not in Grain Valley...

The last thing KC needs is to subsidize and encourage people to move to places like Lone Jack and Kearney when there is so much underdeveloped land within 20 miles of downtown.

GRID wrote: 3 billion to widen 70 from downtown to 435 to four lanes each way?  Yea. OK. Sure.   That would cost well under a billion, probably closer to 500 million.  You could widen 70 clear to 470 for under a billion I would bet.  They are rebuilding a much more intense stretch of 64 in StL for like 600 million.

Anyway.  I drove from Blue Springs to downtown for 8 years.  Most trips (AM or PM) were 20-30 minutes tops.  435 on the east is rarely even congested. bla bla bla.

KC is not congested enough for commuter rail and there is still the problem of not having a CBD or RCP fixed rail or efficient BRT spine.

I just don't see people driving to a park and ride, waiting the 10-15 minutes for a train, taking a 30-45 minute train ride (if there are no delays caused by freight etc) to union station, then walking up to Main street to catch a bus to downtown or midtown or walking to crown center offices, either of which would add another 10-15 minutes.  So 1-1.5 hour commutes in KC?  Seriously?  I don't think so.

People do that here in DC where commutes in the same corridor can take 1-2 hours and parking is either non-existent or 10-20 dollars a day.  Why would people do that in KC when they can drive in from the furthest out suburbs in less than 30 minutes and have an abundance of parking that is free to 4 dollars a day?

But hey, it's better than nothing.  It's a start.  It might get something going in the city like LRT, street cars etc.  You know, something that will encourage people to live in the city, not in Grain Valley...

The last thing KC needs is to subsidize and encourage people to move to places like Lone Jack and Kearney when there is so much underdeveloped land within 20 miles of downtown.

How is doing this any worse than the regional, metro, express buses pushed by MARC for the last 10 years? And it's not all about putting people from to suburbs to downtown, but moving people in every direction across the region (KCK > Blue Springs, MCI > Grandview, Indy Square > Village West). We need this and I'll take rail over buses.

The people want this...poll them. Commuting to work everyday trapped in a steel coffin blows dick regardless of your precious commute times.

trailerkid wrote: How is doing this any worse than the regional, metro, express buses pushed by MARC for the last 10 years? And it's not all about putting people from to suburbs to downtown, but moving people in every direction across the region (KCK > Blue Springs, MCI > Grandview, Indy Square > Village West). We need this and I'll take rail over buses.

The people want this...poll them. Commuting to work everyday trapped in a steel coffin blows dick regardless of your precious commute times.

It could work and you do get a lot of transit for your money.  It has to be more than a few AM and PM trains though.  I don't see people taking this to catch a flight from Blue Springs to KCI.  I just don't see enough trains going in both directions frequently enough to allow people to use the system in such a way.  Plus, the urban core needs a much better bus or rail system to even support a commuter system like this.  Anybody that says it will cost over 3 billion dollars to widen 6-8 miles of interstate raises red flags as far as exageration and this will be sold as much more than it will be IMO.  Rail to KCI sure sounds sexy to the average resident.  Building a system that will actually get people there from many points in the metro at all times of the the day it going to be VERY expensive and even if you did that, few would use it since KCI is a drive to airport and can be reached within ease of most parts of the metro.

But yes, it's MUCH better than the metro wide BRT system MARC has been pushing for a decade, especially since the KC area's idea of BRT is twisted.

GRID wrote: It could work and you do get a lot of transit for your money.  It has to be more than a few AM and PM trains though.  I don't see people taking this to catch a flight from Blue Springs to KCI.  I just don't see enough trains going in both directions frequently enough to allow people to use the system in such a way.  Plus, the urban core needs a much better bus or rail system to even support a commuter system like this.  Anybody that says it will cost over 3 billion dollars to widen 6-8 miles of interstate raises red flags as far as exageration and this will be sold as much more than it will be IMO.  Rail to KCI sure sounds sexy to the average resident.  Building a system that will actually get people there from many points in the metro at all times of the the day it going to be VERY expensive and even if you did that, few would use it since KCI is a drive to airport and can be reached within ease of most parts of the metro.

But yes, it's MUCH better than the metro wide BRT system MARC has been pushing for a decade, especially since the KC area's idea of BRT is twisted.

we're just arguing on the idea right now. i understand you're thinking this will turn into "another" kc project where corners are cut and we get something half-ass despite the public's enthusiasm.

the scheduling needs to run every hour and much higher during morning and evening rush hour-- mimic chicago metra scheduling. honestly, getting it off the ground is enough for me. it can be tweeked and expanded once it is funded.

also, remember that a huge part to the public transportation puzzle is providing opportunities for everyone-- not just those privileged enough to choose between driving or public transit. encouraging suburban auto commuters to use public transit is important, but we will always lose if we continue to see our options in such a myopic way. generation y demographics are turning away from private autos and turning to mass transit-- look it up. we must regard a regional public transit system as a great and necessary leap forward in synthesizing economic opportunities across the metro with many disadvantaged by our lack of transit options.

I say bring this on ASAP.

Star: Sanders unveils regional rail system

KMBC: JaxCo Exec Proposes Commuter Rail Plan

someone needs to tell sanders that there are no more options for stimulus funding. the application deadlines for all four passenger rail stimulus funding tracks have all passed (the last was oct. 2). the TIGER deadline was sept. 15. the white house has not indicated there will be a 2nd stimulus package, and a new transportation bill is in limbo. maybe he actually submitted something and the local media failed to confirm that?

and as for his assertion that the feds will cover all operating costs, there are few options. CMAQ has been used for commuter rail operations in the past, but that funding is capped at two years (in the current program anyway). there was some legislation passed recently that allowed transit agencies to use up to 10% of existing federal funds for operating costs, but with no operator identified that doesn't seem likely.

this will require a new local revenue source, unless our congressional delegation pulls out a major earmark. no reason to get everyone's hopes up that this will cost the metro nothing.

I tend to agree with GRID. This only subsidizes far flung suburbs, creates a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (traffic congestion) and is back-asswards in the timeline for transit. Build the RCP spine FIRST, then we can worry about getting suburbanites access to it.

KCMax wrote: I tend to agree with GRID. This only subsidizes far flung suburbs, creates a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (traffic congestion) and is back-asswards in the timeline for transit.

where do you think the riders will be headed?

DaveKCMO wrote: this will require a new local revenue source, unless our congressional delegation pulls out a major earmark. no reason to get everyone's hopes up that this will cost the metro nothing.

Yes.  Sanders does this plan a disservice by telling people that Washington can be expected to pay for all of it.  We definitely need a dedicated local tax to pay for operating and most likely some of construction.  Especially considering that three of the lines don't have rails yet.

DaveKCMO wrote: where do you think the riders will be headed?

I guess the few people that ride it will have to ride our underfunded bus system.

KCMax wrote: I guess the few people that ride it will have to ride our underfunded bus system.

How many?  Less that what ride the express buses now?  If I worked at the Federal Building and lived in Blue Springs and they replaced the express bus with this commuter rail. You just put me in my car and on the freeway because my 25 minute bus ride that dropped me off at 12th and McGee just turned into an hour or more.

Billion dollar commuter rail system in a city with a bus system that might rival Omaha's?  Ok...  You can't even catch a bus to the stadiums in KC.  Are they really going to have max buses all lined up at Pershing and Grand for these people?

I just don't get it.

KCMO should have went back to the voters with an amended plan for the already approved light rail.  We would be in final design right now of the amended plan and KC could have gotten most of it funded via grants, stimulus money etc if were it in the final design stage and the buses could have been improved and funded as part of the amended vote to fix the Chastain plan.  Like I said 100 times.  The day the city killed the Chastain yes vote and didn't somehow take advantage of what I guarantee will be the ONLY time a city wide vote will ever pass in KCMO was the day KC killed the possibility of having a modern and efficient transit system for at least the next 30 years.

KC does not need little toy locomotives (basically big buses on rail) that will take a few hundred people off the interstates.  It should be part of the grand plan, but in the first phase?  How does this help the urban core?  More people will buy coffee in Union Station?  How does this encourage a developer to build a condo tower at 17th and Grand or 31st and Main?  It will give developers a reason to build massive apartment complexes in Grain Valley though!

Till KC town can build a transit system to connect all the most dense areas of the city (Downtown to the Plaza), I just don't take anything the city or countys do seriously.

If they can get the feds to pay the full price of this...go for it.  I don't see how they will pull it off though. Like I said, the city couldn't even find 70k to keep the stadium express buses going.  I'm not saying those buses are important, I'm saying the area's existing bus system is so underfunded that all this talk about billion dollar rail anything is just silly.

KC missed the transit boat in the 90's and I think it will live with that mistake for at least a generation.

Star story, pretty much says the same thing. So is this competing for fed funds with any light rail plan we might come up with?

Jackson County executive unveils plan for a regional commuter rail system

U.S. Rep. Emanuel Cleaver on Sanders' regional rail proposal

Basically says its expensive, we're not dense enough, but hey, great try just don't get your hopes up.

GRID wrote:How many?  Less that what ride the express buses now?  If I worked at the Federal Building and lived in Blue Springs and they replaced the express bus with this commuter rail. You just put me in my car and on the freeway because my 25 minute bus ride that dropped me off at 12th and McGee just turned into an hour or more.

Traffic congestion along the interstates during the morning commute, while certainly not completely awful, is a pain in the ass for around an hour or so, especially if there's an accident. And there are often accidents. Ignoring the injury and death aspect, those accidents delay your express bus just as much as they delay everyone else.

Fortunately, trains don't have to worry about those delays, and there is some anecdotal evidence that people are more likely to ride a train than a bus anyway. Give them comfy seats to snooze in, wifi, maybe a little onboard coffee and pasty vendor (hey, why not?) and all of a sudden that "hour or more" doesn't seem like such a bad deal, at least not to me. I'd do that over driving 100% of the time.

That said, I'm wondering why it would have to take an hour or more. That seems like an awful long time when all you're doing is stopping a few times for 30-60 seconds, then transferring to a MAX bus to go downtown.

mean wrote: That said, I'm wondering why it would have to take an hour or more. That seems like an awful long time when all you're doing is stopping a few times for 30-60 seconds, then transferring to a MAX bus to go downtown.

The trains would only average 30-40 mph, at most, in most of the metro area.  In addition to freight congestion there are also many at-grade crossings and at-grade rail junctions.  Current Amtrak journeys between Union Station and Lee's Summit are 50 minutes. Our existing rail system would need massive investments to allow commuter rail to get up to the theoretical speeds of 70 mph.

dangerboy wrote:Our existing rail system would need massive investments to allow commuter rail to get up to the theoretical speeds of 70 mph.

i guess that explains the billion dollar price tag.