Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

[nota]

The best course in KC Metro is Sycamore Ridge - out near Spring Hill (south of Olathe).   Golf Digest ranks it #1, the USGA scoring system ranks it #1, and so do I.   LOL!


I love Deer Creek's layout, but I get a lot of negative feedback from others who don't like it or say it's too tough.  (It's the toughest course in KC IMO).    I liked the old Ironhorse and am interested to see it come back.


Falcon is nice, and ranks just a shade behind those but ahead of the rest.

I don't know if we've played Sycamore Ridge or Deer Creek. Are they new since about 2002? We liked the old Ironhorse too.

[dangerboy]

My parents and grandparents both chose to live in the burbs. I grew up in the burbs. My father was born in 1902 and my mother was born in 1926.

That makes no sense.  The modern suburbs we are talking about didn't exist before 1950, so how could your grandfather have chosen to live in one?  

They may have a chosen a "streetcar suburb" - but those were much different than the post-WWII suburbs that are the topic of this thread.

[Maitre D]

I don't know if we've played Sycamore Ridge or Deer Creek. Are they new since about 2002? We liked the old Ironhorse too.

Sycamore was built in 2000.  Deer Creek, 1989.

[mean]

And in my anecdotal experience, we have always been outnumbered in the 'burbs by younger couples-some with kids, some DINKS. It's the same way here. There must be a reason.

Sure, there are reasons. I listed some:

[I can't afford it | I work out here | the schools suck]

I'm sure there are others, too.

[kcmetro]

That makes no sense.  The modern suburbs we are talking about didn't exist before 1950, so how could your grandfather have chosen to live in one? 

They may have a chosen a "streetcar suburb" - but those were much different than the post-WWII suburbs that are the topic of this thread.

I think she may have meant that they chose to live in the suburbs later in their lives when modern suburbs became common.

[GRID]

This is a cool story and all, but if any of you think suburban sprawl is over, you are nuts.

Long before gas shot up to 4 bucks a gallon, living in the suburbs of most large towns was still expensive and a pain in the ass.  Super long commutes,  horrible traffic etc.  But even so, HOV lanes go empty while ten lanes of single occupancy lanes are gridlock, buses are fare and few between etc.

What I’m saying is that people seem to continue choosing the burbs over the city by massive margins and even in cities that have strong, vibrant urban core, a tiny percent of the population chooses to live there.

In KC, it’s worse, much worse.  The ratio of those choosing “true” urban housing over a more suburban home is off the charts.  It’s like how that jazz station compares to mix 93.3.

I think the best we can hope for in KC is that some of our suburban sprawl starts to be more infill.  KC has a ton of open and under-utilized land (probably more per capita than any other city out there) that we have jumped over to reach cheaper, more desirable land.

We need to fill up what we have and we could easily add 200-400k to our existing infrastructure.  That should be a priority.

As far as suburbs dying for the city?  OK, let me know when we can get our first new construction tower up, because after a six month hiatus, most of the larger suburban developments are gearing up to build homes again as things are starting to show signs of returning to normal soon.

[kcmetro]

As far as suburbs dying for the city?  OK, let me know when we can get our first new construction tower up, because after a six month hiatus, most of the larger suburban developments are gearing up to build homes again as things are starting to show signs of returning to normal soon.

Huh? I don't see the suburbs taking off again any time soon.

[bahua]

Living in the suburbs being expensive is a relatively new thing. Certainly within the last five or ten years. That was the original draw of suburbia. The American Dream could be had for a low price. But even with the suburbs priced as they are, it's still cheaper to live in a cul-de-sac with a five-digit address than it is to live with a family in a desirable part of the city, even in Kansas City.

Gas prices won't affect the cycle of suburbanization as much as the renaissance of cities that's currently underway in America. And I don't think suburbs will ever fully go away.

[LenexatoKCMO]

Living in the suburbs being expensive is a relatively new thing.

Exactly - read any history of the suburbs and it will invariably start out with a description of GIs coming back from the war and needing cheap housing to start the baby boom/"american dream". 

[GRID]

Huh? I don't see the suburbs taking off again any time soon.

Are you kidding?  Tell me that in ten years when the area has built another 75,000 suburban homes (if the economy stays slow) and downtown has added 5,000 homes (if we are lucky and downtown takes off).

I'm working on several massive suburban developments now that won't even break groud till a year or two.  We are not working on any urban projects.  None.  Five years ago, we always had several proposals, only a fraction would get built, but we always had somebody trying to build a condo or apartment building in the RCP corridor.  Nobody is even trying to build high density in KC now and I'm always 2-3 years ahead of what actually happens.  That's how long it takes to build stuff.

It's just not happening in KC like it is in other towns.

[kcmetro]

Are you kidding?  Tell me that in ten years when the area has built another 75,000 suburban homes and downtown has added 5,000 homes (if we are lucky).

So where is our energy going to come from in 10 years? Without mass quantities of cheap energy (oil), there's no hope for the burbs. It's just not efficient.

[bahua]

Without mass quantities of cheap energy (oil), there's no hope for the burbs.

Without massive quantities of cheap energy, there's no hope for anyone.

[kcmetro]

Without massive quantities of cheap energy, there's no hope for anyone.

That too. 

[nota]

That makes no sense.  The modern suburbs we are talking about didn't exist before 1950, so how could your grandfather have chosen to live in one?  

They may have a chosen a "streetcar suburb" - but those were much different than the post-WWII suburbs that are the topic of this thread.

When my grandparents moved in from the farm and retired, they moved to a small place on the outskirts of town so they could still have their garden and a couple of chickens. It was on a street with fairly large lots for the time and had houses all up and down it on both sides. A grocery store on the corner. The back of their house viewed the country and open fields. Call it what you want. That was in the late 40s. There were no streetcars in that town. Not even any buses to this day.

My parents married in 1945 and bought a small Cape Cod way out on the edge of town. I was born in 1947. When I was about 2, they built a new house a little further out. Yes, it was the 'burbs.

[loftguy]

Damn, Nota.  You were one of the prototypes for suburban kids.  No wonder you love the burbs so.

[aknowledgeableperson]

So where is our energy going to come from in 10 years? Without mass quantities of cheap energy (oil), there's no hope for the burbs. It's just not efficient.

Hey, I just made a trip today to St. Louis and back (not for the game but to pick up a granddaughter) and I made the trip on $2 gasoline.  How?  Easy the vehicle I used got twice the gas mileage than the one I would have used.

As people switch to vehicles with higher MPG's the cost factor will decrease.  So, instead of spending $10 a day for gas on a commute they will spend either $5 or $7 and they will see a savings.

Besides, many will see that their housing costs will go up if they move closer to the city.  So the question will become do I spend the money on gas or housing?

[Tosspot]

Hey, I just made a trip today to St. Louis and back (not for the game but to pick up a granddaughter) and I made the trip on $2 gasoline.  How?  Easy the vehicle I used got twice the gas mileage than the one I would have used.

You would have made a good accountant AKP.

[aknowledgeableperson]

In my working life I was.

[KCPowercat]

Besides, many will see that their housing costs will go up if they move closer to the city.  So the question will become do I spend the money on gas or housing?

huh?  I keep hearing how people living in the city are poor and can't afford to live further out....I'm confused.

I can't believe it would be a question....you are asking if people should spend money on a house closer to everything or spend it on living further out and having to drive further to everything.  Is that really a decision for people?

[LenexatoKCMO]

As people switch to vehicles with higher MPG's the cost factor will decrease.  So, instead of spending $10 a day for gas on a commute they will spend either $5 or $7 and they will see a savings.

Your theory presupposes that mechanical efficiency and petroleum costs will be able to increase at an evenly matched rate.  Most mechanical efficiency improvements are limited by diminishing returns whereas the potential rate of increase in petroleum cost as demand continues to substantialy outpace supply is likely exponential.