KCRag Forum

Crazy expensive design requirements are as good as the current 1 floor height limit in preventing any change

If there's no concerted effort pushing for premium design and maximize broad use of such a prime site, a standard issue lego block residential building may end up here as a private island. This site deserves premium investment that is open to everyone.

earthling wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:10 am If there's no concerted effort pushing for premium design and maximize broad use of such a prime site, a standard issue lego block residential building may end up here as a private island.

Modern luxury design is still an order of magnitude more affordable va modern ornate construction. Not to mention MOST of the plaza area residential towers are nothing to write hike about.

Agree is doesn't have to be ornate but does need to be much better than standard issue mediocre.

earthling wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:13 am Agree is doesn't have to be ornate but does need to be much better than standard issue mediocre.

I think a 3 Light level of materials would be acceptable. Community is going to need to understand that incentives will be required to get these projects going even in the best of times.

Higher incentives than normal are more than justified if it's mostly a community center first and residential second. Moving the Plaza library here would more easily justify high incentives.

earthling wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:32 am Higher incentives than normal are more than justified if it's mostly a community center first and residential second.

Changing the mentality from no incentives at all to allowing them is the first step. That Belleview project is a step forward but sounds like it might be stalled out / for sale

And a pitch that it's primarily for a community center should be easier to swallow for anti-incentive crowd than for private residential developments. I'm all for incentives if project includes a notable publicly accessible element. This site should be mostly about a public center (library/rec center are good anchors) and while residential should go here as well, should be downplayed as a secondary element to take more advantage of air space and improving density. Much better balance to pitch than incentives for private residential islands closed to the public.

There’s already a library south of Brush Creek. No need to build another one. A rec center might be a better get, but don’t let Genesis operate it.

Yeah, which is why I said earlier to *move* it here, with entrance right at the streetcar stop. Not easy transit access at current location, up hill and further walk from UMKC stop. Incentives pitch would probably be easier if better located/new library included, about as broadly useful public free amenity as you can score.

And agree with Fang that senior housing might be an easier initial approach as it should allow for much less parking. As more go car-less over time, it could potentially transition to broader car-less tenants decades later.

I pitched some senior housing because seniors - especially those who no longer drive -- have difficulty finding housing that is near necessities like transit, grocery and drug stores, medical services, etc. They also need to be in an area where they can walk for exercise and have a park to hang out in.

That's why shopping mall design has always missed the mark in never including residential onsite at malls, and are still failing to see that as a way of saving their investment.

langosta wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:11 am

earthling wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:10 am If there's no concerted effort pushing for premium design and maximize broad use of such a prime site, a standard issue lego block residential building may end up here as a private island.

Modern luxury design is still an order of magnitude more affordable va modern ornate construction. Not to mention MOST of the plaza area residential towers are nothing to write hike about.

Depending on the type of detailing included, the increase in price is negligible to the projects overall costs. I havent explored any Spanish style ornamentation, so I can’t speak to it, but of what I’ve explored, it didn’t increase project costs to a point it was untenable.

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:46 am

langosta wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:11 am

earthling wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:10 am If there's no concerted effort pushing for premium design and maximize broad use of such a prime site, a standard issue lego block residential building may end up here as a private island.

Modern luxury design is still an order of magnitude more affordable va modern ornate construction. Not to mention MOST of the plaza area residential towers are nothing to write hike about.

Depending on the type of detailing included, the increase in price is negligible to the projects overall costs. I have explored any Spanish style ornamentation, so I can’t speak to it, but of what I’ve explored, it didn’t increase project costs to a point it was untenable.

You also are not in a position to build a large tower on the Plaza....

langosta wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 10:55 am

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:46 am

langosta wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:11 am

Modern luxury design is still an order of magnitude more affordable va modern ornate construction. Not to mention MOST of the plaza area residential towers are nothing to write hike about.

Depending on the type of detailing included, the increase in price is negligible to the projects overall costs. I havent explored any Spanish style ornamentation, so I can’t speak to it, but of what I’ve explored, it didn’t increase project costs to a point it was untenable.

You also are not in a position to build a large tower on the Plaza....

I mean…no? Doesn’t mean we can’t still push for decently ornamental buildings instead of a box…

The tennis courts should remain.

The original Plaza design included these parks, and they were not just an afterthought. It really works aesthetically right now as a 'gateway' to the Plaza. The open space of the parks makes the Giralda tower and the adjacent tower have more presence.

Some half-assed semi-plazaesque EIFS building sitting across from the Nichols Fountain would just destroy the feel of that area.

DONT RUIN WHAT ALREADY WORKS!!

What would we be gaining? A CVS? Excess parking? Would that really make the Plaza any better?

This is what a district's entrance looks like. It's already there!

The Nordstrom and Movie Theater sites really needs to be dealt with. Once those are taken care of, then we can turn attention back to the Plaza Tennis Courts.

Additionally, the Plaza wasn’t always as we know it today. JC Nichols changed it over time and so did his family. I guarantee that if his family still owned it, other things would’ve been changed.

A great neighborhood is one that can adapt to change and thrive as a result. If removing the tennis courts for something better that enhances the Plaza is an issue, then why allow anything to be built at the Nordstrom site or replace the movie theater?

And hot take: 47th needs to be redesigned. For what it is, it should be grander. The thin strip of landscaping doesn’t do it justice. Heavily alter that aspect of it, then it’ll be the welcoming entrance to the Plaza that it deserves.

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:36 am
The Nordstrom and Movie Theater sites really needs to be dealt with. Once those are taken care of, then we can turn attention back to the Plaza Tennis Courts.

Additionally, the Plaza wasn’t always as we know it today. JC Nichols changed it over time and so did his family. I guarantee that if his family still owned it, other things would’ve been changed.

A great neighborhood is one that can adapt to change and thrive as a result. If removing the tennis courts for something better that enhances the Plaza is an issue, then why allow anything to be built at the Nordstrom site or replace the movie theater?

And hot take: 47th needs to be redesigned. For what it is, it should be grander. The thin strip of landscaping doesn’t do it justice. Heavily alter that aspect of it, then it’ll be the welcoming entrance to the Plaza that it deserves.

I don't think of the 47th and Main/Broadway area as a good comparison to the Movie Theater site. They are completely different.

The theater site is a terminus while the other is a entry point. We do need a substantial building on the theater site. Whatever is put there will become the focus of the end of the street (and hide the ugly garage beyond). It needs to fit into the Plaza. It could be tall, as long as the architecture blends in. It could be apartments with retail on the bottom. I'm not against that area evolving.

The other spot, the 'gateway' to the Plaza, just works as it is now. That's why I don't want to change it. I don't see what we would gain? The area does not need additional retail space now, they can't keep what they have full. One extra building next to the street car stop isn't going to pull people towards the Plaza who weren't already going there. If fact, depending on how large a new building was, it could block the Plaza's towers from the streetcar stop.

Put a new building on the west side of Winsted's if you want a new streetcar stop related building. It would be closer too.

I just fear any new building would be sub-par. This is a very important spot in our city. It's one of the most iconic. It's beautiful as is, leave it alone.

If the courts stay they must become fully public courts. Not a tennis center operated by Genesis or whatever is going on now. Make em like the Loose courts or scrap em

This is an outrage

Dedicating this to tennis courts alone is a waste of such prime space, especially now that there will be a streetcar stop there. Of all options to consider, single use for something not used often enough is not worth continuing support for sentimental reasons.

The tennis courts are not official Plaza proper and not a good gateway from streetcar into Plaza - try walking it. Need to make this a highly functional transit oriented development (TOD) for such a prime spot and what will become a prime streetcar stop. Those who live/own within 5 blocks or so should have priority say in what they'd like to see (and I do own a condo nearby). There are no neighborhood amenities in Plaza proper so this is the perfect spot for something like CVS or small format grocer like Trader Joes, Hyvee Fresh Fast or small Cosentino's. Is frustrating for Plaza residents not to have walkable amenities for what is otherwise an urban neighborhood and at the streetcar spot is perfect location. Plaza library also much better fit here.

Whatever goes here needs to be mostly for public use and providing multiple public amenities with broad appeal, not exclusively tennis.