KCRag Forum

Posted: **Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:08 pm**

moderne wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:54 am Flatland has yet another new Plaza article saying the new owner is a Jane Jacobs fan.

Plaza District Council Makes Case for Country Club Plaza

...
For the first time, via a phone call with Marshall, Ray Washburne, a prospective owner of the Country Club Plaza, outlined some of his ideas for reinvigorating the 100-year-old shopping district.

“He was very keen to tell me this is really important to him to preserve the historical, architectural beauty and quality of the Country Club Plaza,” Marshall told an audience of about 150 people gathered at Unity Temple.

“That he cares about bringing in local restaurants and local companies that will take ownership so that every little tenant is like a mayor of the Plaza.”
...
“Ray’s a fan of locally owned restaurants and bringing back the local feel (30% of the shops at Highland Park Village are locally owned). He’ll lean into the European village-type experience.

“He understands that the retail mix needs both high-end and more ‘approachable’ shops. He cares a lot about bringing back a great local food scene, music, cafés, etc. ‘I’m a Jane Jacobs-E.B. White kind of guy,’ he told me.”

Jacobs was a famed urbanist who wrote the landmark book “The Death and Life of Great American Cities.” White, a New Yorker writer, penned the famous children’s books “Charlotte’s Web” and “Here is New York,” an appreciation of that city.
...
Matthew Mellor, board chair, presented statistics that he believed demonstrated the strength of the approximately three-square-mile area his group considers the Plaza District.

It includes 20,000 residents with a median income 15% higher than the metro area, 50% with college degrees. About 15,000 people work there, and its three universities have 18,000 students.

Mellor added the area is the largest generator of sales and property taxes per acre in the metropolitan area.

As for tourism, the Plaza area has about 2,500 hotel rooms. An estimated 6.6 million people visited during the first six months of this year, one-third from outside Kansas City and half that number outside Missouri and Kansas.

“Only the stadium complex has a higher percentage of out-of-state visitors than the Country Club Plaza,” Mellor said.
...

https://flatlandkc.org/news-issues/plaz ... lub-plaza/

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:39 am**

moderne wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:54 am Flatland has yet another new Plaza article saying the new owner is a Jane Jacobs fan.

Barf. I remember when this board was littered with Jane Jacobs dick-riding and I do not miss it.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:12 am**

I'm not going to come on here and say that the new owner will solve all the Plaza's problems or that I will agree with everything they want to do. However, at the minimum Highland has deep pockets to invest in the un-sexy capital improvements and hopefully improve the pedestrian environment in anticipation of the streetcar connection with a walkable central plaza and improved pedestrian crossings. The Plaza has a lot of upside, and without all the debt hopefully, they can make some base level improvements to help get the shopping center stabilized.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:06 pm**

Jane Jacobs had a lot of good insights about how vibrant cities actually work and what makes a successful neighborhood. Poo-pooing her ideas is a mistake.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:15 pm**

msmith011 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:04 amStores without Kansas City-area locations that have been expanding and could make sense:

...
Gucci
...
Louis Vuitton
...
Zara

The Plaza had a Gucci during the 1970s and early 1980s, at 48th & Pennsylvania. It was easily the most glamorous store on the Plaza. We also -- briefly -- had a Saks Fifth Avenue, which sold many of the European fashion brands (as did Hall''s).

Vuitton has never had a big midwest presence, but they would certainly be welcome. The local LV where I live in Florida used to be rather French, with francophone managers like at Chanel, but lately even the senior staff don't speak the language. English has really taken over with Gens Y and Z. As recently as the 1990s, a tourist had to make the effort in Europe to speak the native tongue. This summer, I was surprised that about half of the retail and restaurant staff in Luzern didn't even speak German.

Zara is a good idea too.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 4:56 pm**

I was informed that Zara didn’t look at KC previously because we’re “too fat”. But they have a store in Chicago and I swear I see larger people up there far more often. Might as well pursue them as a big shopping name for the Plaza.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:15 pm**

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 4:56 pm I was informed that Zara didn’t look at KC previously because we’re “too fat”. But they have a store in Chicago and I swear I see larger people up there far more often. Might as well pursue them as a big shopping name for the Plaza.

That quote was from over 10 years ago, so hopefully they have changed their strategy. For example, Columbus, Ohio has a Zara now (opened in 2017)

Posted: **Wed Nov 22, 2023 6:40 pm**

Could Plaza Tennis Center be moved for future project site? KC has entertained ideas

...
Kansas City leaders have considered the Plaza Tennis Center at 4747 Mill Creek Parkway for possible development dating back more than a year. The 14-court tennis complex has been a Plaza fixture since 1928, just five years after the historic shopping center opened, but officials such as Mayor Quinton Lucas and City Manager Brian Platt have floated relocating the courts to a nearby rooftop to free up a mixed-use project site.

Platt's office invited more than a dozen people, including officials with the city's Planning & Development and Parks & Recreation departments, to a September 2022 meeting on "Plaza Tennis Courts Redevelopment," the Kansas City Business Journal learned last year through an unrelated records request. No formal plans for the center have emerged since, but Platt said officials have received development ideas and remain "very interested" in proposals.
...
Any proposal for the tennis property would require approval from the city's Parks & Recreation board, which has oversight of the center. And although building height restrictions for the 4.5-acre complex aren't codified under the city's Plaza Bowl Overlay District, it's still part of the Plaza area recommended for a three-story, 45-foot cap to help maintain a bowl concept under the Midtown/Plaza Area Plan, enacted in 2016.
...

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... 2&empos=p4

Posted: **Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:28 am**

The bowl concept needs to go but even so a taller building could go there and contribute to the bowl given it's outer rim of Plaza. And the tennis courts don't need to go as they could be put on rooftop as well as indoor courts. Make it a multi-floor community complex with transit center, move Plaza library here on one or two floors, a floor for tennis, another for other various indoor sports/recreation, move nearest CVS or Walgreens to base and a coffee shop/deli. Can also move MainCor or whatever it's called now office here with a 'safe zone' that is staffed during streetcar hours (and/or KCPD foot patrol). Five to six floors would optimize this space well but adding residential element for taller wouldn't be a bad approach either with the mixed community center.

Posted: **Thu Nov 23, 2023 12:38 pm**

earthling wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:28 am The bowl concept needs to go but even so a taller building could go there and contribute to the bowl given it's outer rim of Plaza. And the tennis courts don't need to go as they could be put on rooftop as well as indoor courts. Make it a multi-floor community complex with transit center, move Plaza library here on one or two floors, a floor for tennis, another for other various indoor sports/recreation, move nearest CVS or Walgreens to base and a coffee shop/deli. Can also move MainCor or whatever it's called now office here with a 'safe zone' that is staffed during streetcar hours (and/or KCPD foot patrol). Five to six floors would optimize this space well but adding residential element for taller wouldn't be a bad approach either with the mixed community center.

Need to pitch this one to the Mayor, or anyone else who can get things done

Posted: **Thu Nov 23, 2023 1:01 pm**

It doesn’t matter if the courts are at grade, above ground, or on a roof. That use and thag volume of use is not warranted at that site.

Posted: **Thu Nov 23, 2023 2:25 pm**

earthling wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:28 am The bowl concept needs to go but even so a taller building could go there and contribute to the bowl given it's outer rim of Plaza. And the tennis courts don't need to go as they could be put on rooftop as well as indoor courts. Make it a multi-floor community complex with transit center, move Plaza library here on one or two floors, a floor for tennis, another for other various indoor sports/recreation, move nearest CVS or Walgreens to base and a coffee shop/deli. Can also move MainCor or whatever it's called now office here with a 'safe zone' that is staffed during streetcar hours (and/or KCPD foot patrol). Five to six floors would optimize this space well but adding residential element for taller wouldn't be a bad approach either with the mixed community center.

I've been a big advocate of keeping the tennis courts but I noticed there was hardly anybody there most of the summer. They are not heavily used from what I can tell. Indoor tennis is almost a completely different game with a weird feel to it as well so not sure how that would go over with casual players. The only thing I'd be concerned about with replacing the tennis courts is the poor quality crap going up elsewhere near the plaza (such as replacement for church on 47th).

As for the "bowl" concept, I don't think that's going to be easily dismissed. What would be most likely acceptable is a 3 story apartment with some retail and a tall but narrow apartment tower off to the ward parkway side so it doesn't screw up the optics of the Plaza.

Posted: **Thu Nov 23, 2023 2:38 pm**

Even if bowl concept stays, that spot is on the outskirts so with a taller building the bowl still is intact. A mixed use residential with public recreation center could work there. A 3-4 floor building could work, just not as efficient use of the most prime spot in that zipcode. It could be a wonderful gateway from streetcar into Plaza with active community center.

Posted: **Thu Nov 23, 2023 2:42 pm**

langosta wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 1:01 pm It doesn’t matter if the courts are at grade, above ground, or on a roof. That use and thag volume of use is not warranted at that site.

Am personally indifferent but if there's a backlash, would be a compromise and a much smaller overall part of function considering all of the other activity that could go there. I do hope it's a major community center in some form (library, recreation, basic neighborhood amenities) and not residential only. Adding residential is fine but not dedicating it for private use. The bulk of the functions should be public use.

Posted: **Fri Nov 24, 2023 12:36 am**

Highlander wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 2:25 pm
earthling wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:28 am The bowl concept needs to go but even so a taller building could go there and contribute to the bowl given it's outer rim of Plaza. And the tennis courts don't need to go as they could be put on rooftop as well as indoor courts. Make it a multi-floor community complex with transit center, move Plaza library here on one or two floors, a floor for tennis, another for other various indoor sports/recreation, move nearest CVS or Walgreens to base and a coffee shop/deli. Can also move MainCor or whatever it's called now office here with a 'safe zone' that is staffed during streetcar hours (and/or KCPD foot patrol). Five to six floors would optimize this space well but adding residential element for taller wouldn't be a bad approach either with the mixed community center.
I've been a big advocate of keeping the tennis courts but I noticed there was hardly anybody there most of the summer. They are not heavily used from what I can tell. Indoor tennis is almost a completely different game with a weird feel to it as well so not sure how that would go over with casual players. The only thing I'd be concerned about with replacing the tennis courts is the poor quality crap going up elsewhere near the plaza (such as replacement for church on 47th).

As for the "bowl" concept, I don't think that's going to be easily dismissed. What would be most likely acceptable is a 3 story apartment with some retail and a tall but narrow apartment tower off to the ward parkway side so it doesn't screw up the optics of the Plaza.

Ever since it switched from KCUT/OPRC to Genesis I’ve noticed the usage plummet as well... I wonder if most of the tournaments that used to be there are now played out in OP? Would make sense as the director of tennis from 96 to 2019 switched over to OPRC.

I grew up playing on those courts and there would be a tournament there every other weekend or so. It was pretty common to see people from Iowa, Nebraska or Oklahoma trying to get their USTA points.

That ability for tennis tournaments held on the Plaza to draw in out-of-state players and their families is one thing I hope people factor into this discussion. It’s a base of people staying in nearby hotels, eating/shopping in the area and contributing to the overall ambiance of the plaza.

Posted: **Fri Nov 24, 2023 12:01 pm**

Ideally they poll the residents within say a 2-3 mile radius (especially transit users, not entire KCMO). Ask what they'd like to see there, with a long list of suggestions and multi-choice. Those of us who own/rent nearby especially should have higher ranking consideration than those outside city core but still get suggestions from anyone. I still own a condo blocks away and have very strong feelings about it mainly becoming a multi use public center in some form and address lack of basic amenities for nearby Plaza residents (family from larger cities stay at my place and main complaint is no basic amenities to walk to). Residential on top would be great here too if secondary purpose but should be mostly public use that happens to have residential, not residential that becomes mostly a private island (as what happened with Katz development).

Posted: **Fri Nov 24, 2023 12:40 pm**

I likewise noticed many many many instances over the last few years where few or even no courts were being used even in some pretty prime weather. I agree it's an ideal spot for some type of community center that will serve a much broader range of people than the tennis playing public and tennis can still be a component if it must.

A residential component definitely needs to be part of it as I think it is consensus on this board and a growing consensus at large that The Plaza needs more residential density. 6 floors minimum and I'd take more but certainly that would receive a lot of push back. 3 stories is just ridiculous.

Posted: **Fri Nov 24, 2023 5:39 pm**

Might be an easier sell to public if a taller residential building has a fused in corner Moorish tower element higher than roofline and overall design that is compatible with Plaza. Ditto with any residential within Plaza boundaries as well - put a Moorish tower at corner! Functionally the corner of tower below roofline can be bedroom bay windows with fused in tower facade - giving it a separate identity even though structurally within it. The entire lower 3-4 floors need to be some kind of public array of amenities with ideally public rooftop access whatever that function is. 8-10 floors could work if designed right and properly sold to public that it's a community center first, residential second. And it would actually contribute to 'the bowl' given it's at the edge of Plaza Proper.

This approach might allow to dump the unecessary 'bowl' concept.... any new tallish building within Plaza boundaries must have an element of a Moorish tower a couple floors above roofline. Can there be too many?

Posted: **Sat Nov 25, 2023 2:17 am**

I would argue that it's not really part of the Plaza bowl overlay, since the Plaza starts across the street. I would say 10 stories would be the right size but 7 stories at minimum. It should have balconies and probably double-door entrances to the balconies. I would argue there is a need for part of it to be senior housing that allows the residents to be car-less and also have shopping that is available to them (grocery, drug store) and I'd like to see hair salons, dental practices, eye care, etc.

I agree that it needs to be multipurpose and have a striking appearance because it will essentially become the new face of the Plaza District. Thus, you can't cheap out on the design.

Something like this, but with a corner tower and taking up the whole block.

Something modeled on the Hotel Alfonzo in Seville.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.382679 ... &entry=ttu

Posted: **Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:55 am**

Good ideas. It's a pretty big block so the taller residential element could go on the SW quadrant with the Moorish tower at very SW corner. Then terraced at 4-5 floors for the public amenities (move Plaza library here, public recreation of various forms) and maybe terraced down again to 1-2 floors toward the NE corner with ground level being coffee shop and if not moving nearest CVS/Walgreens here, maybe a Trader Joes or Cosentinos similar to downtown - or even a small bodega. HyVee is now doing small format stores I think called Fast&Fresh. And a MainCore/KCPD foot patrol office facing streetcar stop. Something along those lines.

Agree this is not a location to go mediocre with design, it has to be a primo design that becomes the gateway into Plaza from streetcar stop.

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