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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:47 pm
by normalthings
WoodDraw wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:36 pm
Something that drives me crazy but I am sure there is a reason for.
I’ll use the northbound crossroads stop as an example. The streetcar constantly gets stopped at the 19th st red light only to finally cross the street and immediately stop again for the crossroads stop.
Someone please explain to me why this happens and the streetcar isn’t given signal priority. It drives me mad every time I see it happen and makes me lose all faith in traffic engineers.
Our good friends public works
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:36 am
by WoodDraw
normalthings wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:47 pm
WoodDraw wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:36 pm
Something that drives me crazy but I am sure there is a reason for.
I’ll use the northbound crossroads stop as an example. The streetcar constantly gets stopped at the 19th st red light only to finally cross the street and immediately stop again for the crossroads stop.
Someone please explain to me why this happens and the streetcar isn’t given signal priority. It drives me mad every time I see it happen and makes me lose all faith in traffic engineers.
Our good friends public works
Nooo I want a good explanation, please don't let it be this.
A police officer once told me it was because the unions wouldn't let anyone have light priority over them, and while I think it's a conspiracy theory, I Find it entertaining. Lol
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:59 am
by DaveKCMO
WoodDraw wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:36 am
normalthings wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:47 pm
WoodDraw wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:36 pm
Something that drives me crazy but I am sure there is a reason for.
I’ll use the northbound crossroads stop as an example. The streetcar constantly gets stopped at the 19th st red light only to finally cross the street and immediately stop again for the crossroads stop.
Someone please explain to me why this happens and the streetcar isn’t given signal priority. It drives me mad every time I see it happen and makes me lose all faith in traffic engineers.
Our good friends public works
Nooo I want a good explanation, please don't let it be this.
A police officer once told me it was because the unions wouldn't let anyone have light priority over them, and while I think it's a conspiracy theory, I Find it entertaining. Lol
LOL. That is an outright lie. It's just Public Works engineers, none of which are union. Coincidentally, PD/FD can trigger part of this system (Opticom) to make going through intersections in an emergency safer for all but they refuse to do so (or so says PW). Instead they just blow through with sirens blaring.
It's confusing, but there is a distinction between signal
priority and signal
pre-emption. The streetcar does have priority, and within that it's a knob and not a switch -- if the streetcar is "on time" there's no need to shorten the red or extend the green (at least the way the system is programmed). Each intersection is adjusted according to the needs of the streetcar and cross-street traffic. The streetcar runs faster now than it did at launch because of this fine tuning.
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:48 am
by KCPowercat
It's very noticeable at 5th and grand and S truman and main. S truman light is like 4 seconds.
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:41 pm
by WoodDraw
DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:59 am
WoodDraw wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:36 am
normalthings wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:47 pm
Our good friends public works
Nooo I want a good explanation, please don't let it be this.
A police officer once told me it was because the unions wouldn't let anyone have light priority over them, and while I think it's a conspiracy theory, I Find it entertaining. Lol
LOL. That is an outright lie. It's just Public Works engineers, none of which are union. Coincidentally, PD/FD can trigger part of this system (Opticom) to make going through intersections in an emergency safer for all but they refuse to do so (or so says PW). Instead they just blow through with sirens blaring.
It's confusing, but there is a distinction between signal
priority and signal
pre-emption. The streetcar does have priority, and within that it's a knob and not a switch -- if the streetcar is "on time" there's no need to shorten the red or extend the green (at least the way the system is programmed). Each intersection is adjusted according to the needs of the streetcar and cross-street traffic. The streetcar runs faster now than it did at launch because of this fine tuning.
For the record, was just passing on a funny story. I never believed it.
Thanks for the explanation. I still think they should adjust for scenarios like this. But I really appreciate the explanation.
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:17 pm
by normalthings
Is it just me or are the tracks infront of the 3rd platform in need of some major work.
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:30 pm
by DaveKCMO
normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:17 pm
Is it just me or are the tracks infront of the 3rd platform in need of some major work.
Lots of track work in progress now. Tough climate.
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:42 pm
by normalthings
DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:30 pm
normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:17 pm
Is it just me or are the tracks infront of the 3rd platform in need of some major work.
Lots of track work in progress now. Tough climate.
Does that come out of the fee we pay Herzog or is it extra?
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:10 pm
by DaveKCMO
normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:42 pm
DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:30 pm
normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:17 pm
Is it just me or are the tracks infront of the 3rd platform in need of some major work.
Lots of track work in progress now. Tough climate.
Does that come out of the fee we pay Herzog or is it extra?
We're well past the construction warranty, so it's extra.
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:43 am
by KCPowercat
It does seem like a LOT of crumbling track bed for this soon.
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:06 am
by flyingember
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:43 am
It does seem like a LOT of crumbling track bed for this soon.
If we assume the train is about 80,000 lbs on average, the average car is 4000 pounds (so the train does 20x the damage) and use 48 round trips per day, every day, for five years (rounding down on the number of trips) then the train has done the damage of 2 million additional cars in five years
And it's all on the exact same points over and over and over so the damage builds faster on the exact same spots
I'm surprised the track slab hasn't degraded sooner
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:26 am
by normalthings
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:43 am
It does seem like a LOT of crumbling track bed for this soon.
1. Did the trackbed employ glass or steel fiber reinforcement? I would have expected better performance from a GFRC slab.
2. Looking through old photos, asphalt and brick pavers were used between and adjacent to the original streetcar tracks. Have any new systems used those? Speaking of brick pavers, are they a natural traffic calming feature?
3. The amount of crumbling trackbed should make us consider ballasted track where feasible on future extensions (NKC, RF).
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:42 pm
by flyingember
Back in the original system track was often abandoned due to the maintenance costs. A lot of lines switched to electric trolley bus.
The private companies pre-1925 had to repair all their track at their cost and pay the a royalty for the privilege.
It's helps explain why so much track was paved over, the city didn't install it and was taking on liability had they maintained it.
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:32 pm
by DaveKCMO
Embedded track does have a major operating advantage: It's not as susceptible to expansion during high heat. Expansion leads to speed restrictions.
Whatever you've seen being repaired is mostly aesthetic and has not impacted the speed of the system.
A small segment at 8th Street did use a different technique and I believe it was worn better.
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:44 pm
by flyingember
DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:32 pm
A small segment at 8th Street did use a different technique and I believe it was worn better.
With the pour with the rails in place the wrap around the rails is hidden under the concrete.
With the test section they pored concrete and then embedded the rails in the street after it cured. you can tell exactly where this is, the membrane around the track is visible in the NB track where it crosses 8th
It's a bit hard to get the right angle, but it's even visible in google street view
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:52 am
by flyingember
https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/kc ... le-in-size
The council committee is also set to review a $5.5 million contract — also with CAF USA — on Wednesday that would allow retrofitting of the existing vehicles.
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:01 am
by DaveKCMO
The retrofit is all tech, so that the combined fleet will have the same capabilities.
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:32 am
by langosta
Will there be an LCD map in the vehicles in the future?
Lack of full signal priority keeps speeds down significantly during events and peak ridership times. Any indication the nee city manager woukd be onboard with unlocking that feature?
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:04 pm
by GRID
I just spent several days in Downtown KCMO. In and out of many different hotels, restaurants etc and generally surrounded by hundreds of tourists in town for the volleyball convention everywhere we went.
Some thoughts on the streetcar:
People were using the shit out it. Trams were almost always full. So it's being using by tourists and they seemed to be actually using it to get around not just play on it. Going from crown center hotels to downtown etc. As the city develops and more hotels are built in the corridor etc, I think it will only get busier. I would imagine doubling up on the streetcars is out of the question, but it would be nice to increase frequency by a few minutes especially when the city is busy with a convention like that.
KCMO has to figure out a way to discourage through traffic on Main Street. Many cities have street running transit like that, but cars driving on it really clog things up and I saw more than one car drive super aggressive crossing the double yellow lines to pass the streetcar at high speed. That is insane and should not even be possible. People should only be on Main for a block to access parking, a business etc. Not to drive for ten blocks. There are 12 other empty streets they can use to do that.
Also the city needs to figure out a way to get cars off some of the streets in the River Market. Especially on Saturdays. What a mess. Don't build more public parking there. There is TONS of parking along the streetcar route. Close the river market to non residents on weekends and make people park and take the damn free tram. And then the trams can move freely and quickly and the river market area will be much nicer without all the cars.
Finally, get some freaking city police presence downtown. Walking cops, traffic cops etc. That might help with the aggressive drivers, keeping traffic moving etc.
Other than that, the streetcar is great and really adds to downtown and is still probably the best or in the top 3 of American streetcar systems. But I also think it would take make to take the KC Streetcar up to European type standards. It has the bones to do it.
Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:03 pm
by AlkaliAxel
GRID wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:04 pm
I just spent several days in Downtown KCMO. In and out of many different hotels, restaurants etc and generally surrounded by hundreds of tourists in town for the volleyball convention everywhere we went.
Some thoughts on the streetcar:
People were using the shit out it. Trams were almost always full. So it's being using by tourists and they seemed to be actually using it to get around not just play on it. Going from crown center hotels to downtown etc. As the city develops and more hotels are built in the corridor etc, I think it will only get busier. I would imagine doubling up on the streetcars is out of the question, but it would be nice to increase frequency by a few minutes especially when the city is busy with a convention like that.
KCMO has to figure out a way to discourage through traffic on Main Street. Many cities have street running transit like that, but cars driving on it really clog things up and I saw more than one car drive super aggressive crossing the double yellow lines to pass the streetcar at high speed. That is insane and should not even be possible. People should only be on Main for a block to access parking, a business etc. Not to drive for ten blocks. There are 12 other empty streets they can use to do that.
Also the city needs to figure out a way to get cars off some of the streets in the River Market. Especially on Saturdays. What a mess. Don't build more public parking there. There is TONS of parking along the streetcar route. Close the river market to non residents on weekends and make people park and take the damn free tram. And then the trams can move freely and quickly and the river market area will be much nicer without all the cars.
Finally, get some freaking city police presence downtown. Walking cops, traffic cops etc. That might help with the aggressive drivers, keeping traffic moving etc.
Other than that, the streetcar is great and really adds to downtown and is still probably the best or in the top 3 of American streetcar systems. But I also think it would take make to take the KC Streetcar up to European type standards. It has the bones to do it.
Yep, the Streetcar, like everything else big we built in this town, exceeds expectations. (Not trying to gripe about something else, but this is exactly how I feel about downtown baseball and central park exceeding expectations too that some people in here keep shooting down for basic boring lame ideas), but yes you're right it's a great amenity.
I think a big reason Main is so crowded is not just because everything seems to be on Main, but also because it's the only street that goes straight and all the way through to the Plaza and Ward without much interruption.