Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

[beautyfromashes]

Many employees go down Ward Parkway, left onto Broadway, and left onto 47th, right into garage. It also pushes traffic going to other offices along 47th to use left turns only, coming from Madison, going right onto 47th, otherwise, you are going around the plaza and coming back West down 47th to make right turns.

Why do you have to go through the Plaza to get to Valencia Place parking. Just take Roanoke to 47th then left into garage? We shouldn’t need to have a line of cars bisecting the Plaza when there is an alternative around.

[Highlander]

47th should take the herbed approach through the Plaza because right now, it sucks to cross. Cars speed through there and I will sometimes have to wait a while for someone to stop their car so I can cross at the crosswalks that aren't signalized.

If they would simply repaint the crosswalks across 47th on a regular basis, it would certainly help. Especially the crosswalk at Central and 47th. Also enforce the pedestrian crosswalk laws on the Plaza (and everywhere), threatening signage and a few police stops for failing to yield right-away to pedestrians and drivers would get the message quickly. Driving culture can be changed.

Many employees go down Ward Parkway, left onto Broadway, and left onto 47th, right into garage. It also pushes traffic going to other offices along 47th to use left turns only, coming from Madison, going right onto 47th, otherwise, you are going around the plaza and coming back West down 47th to make right turns.

Good point. My concept of a pedestrianized plaza only included Nichols and the other N-S streets past the points of the garage entrances. I do not see any reason why Wyandotte, Central and Pennsylvania need to remain open streets past the entrances.

Incidentally, I never noticed until this morning that there is an entrance into the underground garage behind Classic Cup off of JC Nichols. Cannot remember how that parking garage is arranged but closing the JC Nichols entrance exit could create an issue there (although I seem to remember entering and exiting from Central each time I use that garage).

[TheSmokinPun]

That garage is very old & can't imagine easy to maneuver in as SUVs/trucks get bigger & bigger. I'd be fine with doing away with that garage entirely.

[Cratedigger]

47th should take the herbed approach through the Plaza because right now, it sucks to cross. Cars speed through there and I will sometimes have to wait a while for someone to stop their car so I can cross at the crosswalks that aren't signalized.

If they would simply repaint the crosswalks across 47th on a regular basis, it would certainly help. Especially the crosswalk at Central and 47th. Also enforce the pedestrian crosswalk laws on the Plaza (and everywhere), threatening signage and a few police stops for failing to yield right-away to pedestrians and drivers would get the message quickly. Driving culture can be changed.

Many employees go down Ward Parkway, left onto Broadway, and left onto 47th, right into garage. It also pushes traffic going to other offices along 47th to use left turns only, coming from Madison, going right onto 47th, otherwise, you are going around the plaza and coming back West down 47th to make right turns.

Good point. My concept of a pedestrianized plaza only included Nichols and the other N-S streets past the points of the garage entrances. I do not see any reason why Wyandotte, Central and Pennsylvania need to remain open streets past the entrances.

Incidentally, I never noticed until this morning that there is an entrance into the underground garage behind Classic Cup off of JC Nichols. Cannot remember how that parking garage is arranged but closing the JC Nichols entrance exit could create an issue there (although I seem to remember entering and exiting from Central each time I use that garage).

Pretty sure it's exit only there onto Nichols but I could be wrong

[ThorsteinVeblen]

Many employees go down Ward Parkway, left onto Broadway, and left onto 47th, right into garage. It also pushes traffic going to other offices along 47th to use left turns only, coming from Madison, going right onto 47th, otherwise, you are going around the plaza and coming back West down 47th to make right turns.

Why do you have to go through the Plaza to get to Valencia Place parking. Just take Roanoke to 47th then left into garage? We shouldn’t need to have a line of cars bisecting the Plaza when there is an alternative around.

They only recently added in the ability to turn left from 47th going East, however, during busier times, like morning/evening commutes or events it turns eastbournd 47th into one lane as cars can only turn left between n/s traffic light on broadway when e/w flow stops.

To be honest, not allowing a left turn into that garage at all was the way to go. The real complainers are ultimately the employees commuting down here not so much the company which then forces the companies to get involved. Lockton has a lot of people communting from Northland/Lee's Summit/South Leawood who want easy access and multiple floors of below ground parking. You can access the garage by taking a left turn at Pennslyvania and right into the 1st floor as well, but stiil have to go down 4 floors before you hit the first employee deck, you will also have a lot of traffic during certain periods trying to take left turns which puts a good part of 47th between Jefferson to Broadway down to one lane as those garages all sit along the hill. I've also been in two wrecks over the years in the Valencia garage, neither my fault, just people from the burbs not use to garages, so giving traffic three easy outlets is optimal.

If they followed through with all those recommendations I can see headlines multiple weeks later claiming that plaza changes lead to traffic headaches, B-list people claiming they can't go down there anymore, parking not convenient (which couldn't be farther from the truth). Somewhere in the middle won't please everyone but better than nothing or everything in my mind.

[TheUrbanRoo]

If they followed through with all those recommendations I can see headlines multiple weeks later claiming that plaza changes lead to traffic headaches

And who cares. They said this same thing about the airport when it first opened. Much like the Royals, for every person who claims they "won't go anymore" (which is crazy because the Plaza would be better than ever) there'd be 2 more people filling their spot.

[beautyfromashes]

^ My point is that they should move commuter traffic out of the Plaza. Force parkers to go up to 46th and over. People will always complain when they have to do something new. Making most of the Plaza pedestrian focused instead of a lineup of cars trying to get into a garage is the way to go. Push parking queues to the outside of the district.

[TheUrbanRoo]

^ My point is that they should move commuter traffic out of the Plaza. Force parkers to go up to 46th and over. People will always complain when they have to do something new. Making most of the Plaza pedestrian focused instead of a lineup of cars trying to get into a garage is the way to go. Push parking queues to the outside of the district.

I feel like about 90% of KC's problems would be solved if we stopped worrying about how people commuting from muh suburbs feel

[beautyfromashes]

^ My point is that they should move commuter traffic out of the Plaza. Force parkers to go up to 46th and over. People will always complain when they have to do something new. Making most of the Plaza pedestrian focused instead of a lineup of cars trying to get into a garage is the way to go. Push parking queues to the outside of the district.

I feel like about 90% of KC's problems would be solved if we stopped worrying about how people commuting from muh suburbs feel

But this isn't' some huge inconvenience. You have to think about commuters a bit in order to not make it terribly difficult to have large corporate players in the core. But, we're talking about pushing people to go one way around the block instead of the other. It's the most minimal of time lost, if any. Should be zero consideration on whether we pedestrianize any street on the Plaza.

[TheUrbanRoo]

^ My point is that they should move commuter traffic out of the Plaza. Force parkers to go up to 46th and over. People will always complain when they have to do something new. Making most of the Plaza pedestrian focused instead of a lineup of cars trying to get into a garage is the way to go. Push parking queues to the outside of the district.

I feel like about 90% of KC's problems would be solved if we stopped worrying about how people commuting from muh suburbs feel

But this isn't' some huge inconvenience. You have to think about commuters a bit in order to not make it terribly difficult to have large corporate players in the core. But, we're talking about pushing people to go one way around the block instead of the other. It's the most minimal of time lost, if any. Should be zero consideration on whether we pedestrianize any street on the Plaza.

I concur. There’s simply no reason to even compromise for shared car lanes. This plan is completely logical and a car probably wouldn’t even want to drive through that anyway. So why keep it open for them at all? Just drive 15 seconds to the left and find an actual open road.

No compromising on this one, it should be able to gain support with the full plan.

[moderne]

How will delivery trucks service the shops and restaurants when there is no street in front ? Currently delivery trucks do their own job of street narrowing all day.

[langosta]

How will delivery trucks service the shops and restaurants when there is no street in front ? Currently delivery trucks do their own job of street narrowing all day.

Concur. Me thinks the entire street should have a lane wide enough for 2 delivery trucks maintained. Just block it off at night.

[Highlander]

How will delivery trucks service the shops and restaurants when there is no street in front ? Currently delivery trucks do their own job of street narrowing all day.

Concur. Me thinks the entire street should have a lane wide enough for 2 delivery trucks maintained. Just block it off at night.

Pedestrian shopping streets in Europe generally allow delivery trucks access. Generally that is done prior to opening and after closing although I do remember some pedestrian streets with trucks on them during normal operations.

[moderne]

The pedestrianized streets in Europe I have seen have retractable bollards that residents and delivery vehicles have remotes to operate. And the streets are still streets. In the Plaza case, are we talking about leaving the curbs and paved streets, or making one continuous surface? The Plaza already has wider than usual sidewalks as evidenced by the brass markers in the pavement that indicate where city property ends and private property begins. I would rather see DT streets pedestrianized because sidewalks there are so narrow that in places only 2 people can pass from different directions. Cordish did not use any of its property to extend wider sidewalks into.

[GRID]

How will delivery trucks service the shops and restaurants when there is no street in front ? Currently delivery trucks do their own job of street narrowing all day.

Concur. Me thinks the entire street should have a lane wide enough for 2 delivery trucks maintained. Just block it off at night.

Pedestrian shopping streets in Europe generally allow delivery trucks access. Generally that is done prior to opening and after closing although I do remember some pedestrian streets with trucks on them during normal operations.

The trucks have access but they mostly seem to come at night. Many pedestrian corridors do remain streets though for emergency vehicles and you will see police cars routinely drive up and down pedestrian zones. Trams are also often using pedestrian zones.

Most European (or even Australian) central cities have very few private cars though, especially for the size of the cities. Most private cars are ubers or delivery vehicles.

I just spent a month in Australia and was blown away. I really thought their cities would be more like American cities with better transit. There is no comparison even though they have a lot of American type suburban sprawl. So many people use transit and the transit is just so good all across their entire metro areas.

American cities have almost no transit infrastructure and most of what they have is dated and or crumbling and even if the infrastructure is there, frequencies are way too low due to being terribly underfunded.

Sorry about the tangent. I guess my point is that people will still drive to the plaza and that needs to change too if they truly want to create a real city. Again, this is not just a kc thing.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I'm confident we can figure it out if the only issue is just the delivery trucks lol. I'm sure there are solutions so that we can still keep the cars off the street.

[langosta]

Plaza owners defaulted on their debt against the retail district. Nuveen, as the lender, has led discussions to sell the distressed Plaza debt. However, the borrower hopes to work out new terms with Nuveen.

[beautyfromashes]

Alright, here we go! One step closer to new ownership:

Plaza owners default on $300M loan in new sign of distress
https://www.kansascity.com/news/busines ... 47049.html

That's my biggest fear, that even with the right ideas and city support in hand, the Plaza's owners aren't in financial condition to actually execute anything substantial. So it will limp along or slowly decline until it is put up on a block for a bankruptcy auction. I also struggle to think of who the right owner would be. Someone like PN Hoffman would be great but I don't think they operate outside the east coast.

This is actually my biggest hope! If I were the mayor and city, I would be careful not to put any money behind the current ownership. I think it would be totally lost. Let the bankruptcy, or pre-bankruptcy sale happen. Let the buyer get a good deal with some money to put behind it and the Plaza will rebound. It will continue to flounder until that happens.

[Cratedigger]

Assuming the terms aren’t renegotiated… what happens next?

Individual buildings sold off? Whole area included in the sale?

[FangKC]

I would imagine the bankruptcy court would decide that.