KCRag Forum

Posted: **Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:08 pm**

DColeKC wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:12 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:52 pm We also need to stop assuming they're not gonna be able to pass a vote
I'm not worried about this getting struck down by a public vote. Here's how it will go:

Royals decide on location, design and budget.
Royals make this announcement along with the note that Kauffman stadium has surpassed it's lifespan, can no longer keep up with modern demands and must be replaced.
18 month campaign to convince the "fix Kauffman, build new in TSC and anti-subsidies" crowd to support.
If this campaign isn't working, bust out backup plan. Every MLB owners favorite, the "relocate" threat.

End of the day, I just don't see how we don't have a downtown baseball stadium by 2030ish.

Concur, that’s how I see it as well.

My only concern is that Royals try to win their votes by adding a shitload of parking, and then we win the vote with like 70% anyway and realize we didn’t even need to pander to them with the parking.

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:05 am**

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:52 pm We also need to stop assuming they're not gonna be able to pass a vote

Why???????
If there is a vote its outcome likely depends on who is voting. Just Jackson County? Just KCMO? Expand the number of Missouri counties? Tie it to a new Chiefs stadium?

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:08 am**

DColeKC wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:38 pm Royals are always near the bottom in concession revenue because royals fans tailgate. Why? I’m not sure. That’s a football thing but None the less, any downtown stadium should include parking but minimal surface lots to discourage tailgating.

Don't you think attendance has something to do with concession revenue?

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:15 am**

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:42 pm
phuqueue wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:32 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:03 pm The biggest reason the Royals team valuation is so shitty is because of the stadium & location.
[citation needed]
The Royals stadium is worth $136 mil on Forbes. The Rangers & Braves new stadiums that opened recently are both worth $415-430 mil.

If the Royals added that extra $300 mil to their team valuation from a new stadium/district...then they're the 18th or 19th most valuable franchise in MLB. Pretty amazing.

The teams don't own their stadiums man. Come on. This is elementary. Taxpayers own the stadiums. They're not included in any TEAM valuations.. TEAM income, assets, and influence is what valuation measures.

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:28 am**

im2kull wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:15 am
AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:42 pm
phuqueue wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:32 pm
[citation needed]
The Royals stadium is worth $136 mil on Forbes. The Rangers & Braves new stadiums that opened recently are both worth $415-430 mil.

If the Royals added that extra $300 mil to their team valuation from a new stadium/district...then they're the 18th or 19th most valuable franchise in MLB. Pretty amazing.
The teams don't own their stadiums man. Come on. This is elementary. Taxpayers own the stadiums. They're not included in any TEAM valuations.. TEAM income, assets, and influence is what valuation measures.

Yeah it goes towards your team valuation

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:18 am**

aknowledgeableperson wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:08 am
DColeKC wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:38 pm Royals are always near the bottom in concession revenue because royals fans tailgate. Why? I’m not sure. That’s a football thing but None the less, any downtown stadium should include parking but minimal surface lots to discourage tailgating.
Don't you think attendance has something to do with concession revenue?

For sure but even during the recent World Series runs, they were still towards the bottom.

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:35 am**

I could understand including the stadium within team valuation, because the stadium affects revenue even though the team doesn't own it -- newer stadiums can command higher ticket prices, higher rates for corporate suites, probably higher prices on concessions, etc, and new stadiums also tend to experience an attendance bump (and there will be further knock-on effects, e.g., higher attendance probably = more merchandise sales). The stadium doesn't count the same way that your equity in your home is part of your net worth, but it still affects the value of the business. The idea that a new Royals stadium would boost their valuation as much as, say, Atlanta's new stadium strikes me as pretty specious, though. The revenue that you can expect your stadium to generate is still ultimately based on the size and wealth of your market -- how high you can hike ticket prices in the new stadium and how many seats you can expect to fill at those prices.

Ultimately, the Forbes numbers are, again, made up in the first place, and we have no insight into their methodology in making up those numbers, and we know that AA's methodology in extrapolating them to revalue the Royals with a new stadium was very rudimentary (apparently just assuming the Royals valuation would increase by the difference between the valuation of the new Texas/Atlanta stadiums and the current valuation of Kauffman), so this all feels like a pretty flimsy reason to support a new stadium (and that's before getting into questions of why we should care about the value of some billionaire's asset or want to spend taxpayer money to make it more valuable for him, which is another matter).

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:42 am**

I guess the best teams to buy and relocate are the lowest value teams. If you can move yourself up the list, you reduce the buyout/relocation threat.

Otherwise agree that the comments on increasing value are weird.

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:56 am**

The royals ownership group could care less about what a new stadium does for the teams overall evaluation.

Downtown stadium is about 1 thing. Per game revenue. The MLB enjoys a very strong food and beverage per cap spend of $24. Average MLB team may only make $900k on ticket revenue for a well attended game but can bring in 2.5 million on merch and concessions for the same game.

Sherman is smart and understands the financial structure of the game is changing. Right now, small market teams can basically not invest in their rosters, have poor attendance and still take in millions due to revenue sharing. The MLBPA is pushing to change this and that would mean less local revenue sharing. Which would make it critically important for small market teams to become more self sufficient. The Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, Cards and Red Sox essentially bankroll the bottom half of the league.

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:37 am**

DColeKC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:56 am The royals ownership group could care less about what a new stadium does for the teams overall evaluation.

Downtown stadium is about 1 thing. Per game revenue. The MLB enjoys a very strong food and beverage per cap spend of $24. Average MLB team may only make $900k on ticket revenue for a well attended game but can bring in 2.5 million on merch and concessions for the same game.

Sherman is smart and understands the financial structure of the game is changing. Right now, small market teams can basically not invest in their rosters, have poor attendance and still take in millions due to revenue sharing. The MLBPA is pushing to change this and that would mean less local revenue sharing. Which would make it critically important for small market teams to become more self sufficient. The Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, Cards and Red Sox essentially bankroll the bottom half of the league.

The stadium being built will not be a standalone project for the Royals. Sure, stadium revenue will increase with more concessions and ticket revenue, but just as important will be the club-built apartments and office towers built directly around the stadium that will draw business because of the team. The Royals will likely make as much, if not more, for that part of the development as they will game income.

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:03 pm**

DColeKC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:56 am Downtown stadium is about 1 thing. Per game revenue. The MLB enjoys a very strong food and beverage per cap spend of $24. Average MLB team may only make $900k on ticket revenue for a well attended game but can bring in 2.5 million on merch and concessions for the same game.

Where on earth did you get $2.5M per game?

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:18 pm**

Idk why a few of you are throwing such a hissy fit over whether the stadium increases the team valuation on Forbes. Apparently it does increase team valuation. It's part of their pie chart on Forbes. You can go ask them why it's included in the valuation process if it's that important to you. Or you can just take it at face value and move on.

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:47 pm**

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:18 pm Idk why a few of you are throwing such a hissy fit over whether the stadium increases the team valuation on Forbes. Apparently it does increase team valuation. It's part of their pie chart on Forbes. You can go ask them why it's included in the valuation process if it's that important to you. Or you can just take it at face value and move on.

Why does it matter to you is a better question. I tried to answer a potential why

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:15 pm**

normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:47 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:18 pm Idk why a few of you are throwing such a hissy fit over whether the stadium increases the team valuation on Forbes. Apparently it does increase team valuation. It's part of their pie chart on Forbes. You can go ask them why it's included in the valuation process if it's that important to you. Or you can just take it at face value and move on.
Why does it matter to you is a better question. I tried to answer a potential why

The entire premise was they want to move the stadium to get a better team valuation, because the stadiums do count towards it. That's it. Beyond that I don't care, have at it

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:10 pm**

aknowledgeableperson wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:03 pm
DColeKC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:56 am Downtown stadium is about 1 thing. Per game revenue. The MLB enjoys a very strong food and beverage per cap spend of $24. Average MLB team may only make $900k on ticket revenue for a well attended game but can bring in 2.5 million on merch and concessions for the same game.

Where on earth did you get $2.5M per game?

I was using a generic example as 2.5M per game is actually about the worst in the league.

2019 Royals. (28th in the league)
Average attendance: 18,267
Average ticket price: $33.12
Revenue per home game: $3,098.765.43
Gate receipts per home game: $604,938.27
Yearly gate receipts: $49,000,000
Food and merchandise revenue per home game: $2,493,827.16
Yearly food and merchandise revenue: $202,000,000

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:35 pm**

So the average fan spends $136 per game in food and merchandise? No way food/merchandise is $2.5 million even for a 40,000 fan sellout ($62.50 per fan every single fan). "Per home game revenue" includes far more than tickets, food, and merchandise.

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:05 pm**

DColeKC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:10 pm
aknowledgeableperson wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:03 pm
DColeKC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:56 am Downtown stadium is about 1 thing. Per game revenue. The MLB enjoys a very strong food and beverage per cap spend of $24. Average MLB team may only make $900k on ticket revenue for a well attended game but can bring in 2.5 million on merch and concessions for the same game.

Where on earth did you get $2.5M per game?
I was using a generic example as 2.5M per game is actually about the worst in the league.

2019 Royals. (28th in the league)
Average attendance: 18,267
Average ticket price: $33.12
Revenue per home game: $3,098.765.43
Gate receipts per home game: $604,938.27
Yearly gate receipts: $49,000,000
Food and merchandise revenue per home game: $2,493,827.16
Yearly food and merchandise revenue: $202,000,000

What happened to parking revenue? That’s at least one item.
What is your source for the numbers?

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:14 pm**

aknowledgeableperson wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:05 pm
DColeKC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:10 pm
aknowledgeableperson wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:03 pm

Where on earth did you get $2.5M per game?
I was using a generic example as 2.5M per game is actually about the worst in the league.

2019 Royals. (28th in the league)
Average attendance: 18,267
Average ticket price: $33.12
Revenue per home game: $3,098.765.43
Gate receipts per home game: $604,938.27
Yearly gate receipts: $49,000,000
Food and merchandise revenue per home game: $2,493,827.16
Yearly food and merchandise revenue: $202,000,000
What happened to parking revenue? That’s at least one item.
What is your source for the numbers?

Years ago I reviewed the box office statements for the KC Kings. The NBA required the teams to report attendance as tickets sold plus tickets comped, not the turnstile count or actual number of people in the stands. At the same time the KC Comets just pulled a number out of the air using tickets sold and comped plus whoever was in the building working and what ever number was greater than the previous home game. I think MLB only counts those in the stands and not unused tickets whether sold or comped.

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:07 pm**

aknowledgeableperson wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:05 pm
DColeKC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:10 pm
aknowledgeableperson wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:03 pm

Where on earth did you get $2.5M per game?
I was using a generic example as 2.5M per game is actually about the worst in the league.

2019 Royals. (28th in the league)
Average attendance: 18,267
Average ticket price: $33.12
Revenue per home game: $3,098.765.43
Gate receipts per home game: $604,938.27
Yearly gate receipts: $49,000,000
Food and merchandise revenue per home game: $2,493,827.16
Yearly food and merchandise revenue: $202,000,000
What happened to parking revenue? That’s at least one item.
What is your source for the numbers?

Parking is included in that revenue per home game stat. Along with other items like sponsorship etc.

There are several articles out there about revenue sharing which this information can be found in. One thing I’m not sure about is local TV deals and if that total is in these figures.

Posted: **Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:12 pm**

shaffe wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:35 pm So the average fan spends $136 per game in food and merchandise? No way food/merchandise is $2.5 million even for a 40,000 fan sellout ($62.50 per fan every single fan). "Per home game revenue" includes far more than tickets, food, and merchandise.

$24 on food, $40 on parking and you’re at $64 before merch and novelties. The average MLB fan spends $74 on concessions for themselves and their group. Per game revenue includes parking etc.

A 40,000 person sellout does far more than 2.5M. That’s without ticket revenue included.

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