OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

[kboish]

So I found the breakdown of our sales tax rate but I can't find when any of these are set to expire... Does anyone know where to find that info? Is the April capital improvements push just a renewal of the current?

Are you asking about the proposed GO Bond for infrastructure? That is being discussed as a property tax increase, not a sales tax.

[kboish]

So Dave, what are our timelines for various milestones? (Non-binding of course)

[KCPowercat]

Ahhh, okay. That should help but it would be nice to know when those sales tax line items may fall off or St least be up for renewal to help people understand when they hear another 1% is being added to midtown.

[kboish]

Ahhh, okay. That should help but it would be nice to know when those sales tax line items may fall off or St least be up for renewal to help people understand when they hear another 1% is being added to midtown.

Though the TDD is a property tax increase also...so it will still be a double whammy.

[beautyfromashes]

Ok, so the election would be for just those home owners within the newly proposed property tax increase area? What if a home is a rental and owned by someone outside of the area? Does the owner get the vote?

[Eon Blue]

Isn't one of the Johnson County municipalities building a convention center and hotel that will push the sales tax in that project area over 11%?

[flyingember]

You have some number errors, forgot a few taxes and this splits it out more.

Based on the CIDs it would cross, the highest rate would be 10.35%, the same as the stacked special sales taxes in KC Live and Performing Arts.

3.0% general MO
1.0% education MO
0.125% conservation MO
0.1% parks and soil MO
0.5% Jackson County
0.25% general misc Jackson Co
0.375 stadium Jackson Co
0.125 Zoo tax Jackson Co
1.0% capital improvement KC
0.5% mass transit KC
0.375% KCATA KC
0.25% fire fighters KC
0.25% public safety KC
0.5% for parks/streets K

[flyingember]

Ok, so the election would be for just those home owners within the newly proposed property tax increase area? What if a home is a rental and owned by someone outside of the area? Does the owner get the vote?

No. You vote based on your primary residence

[kboish]

Ok, so the election would be for just those home owners within the newly proposed property tax increase area? What if a home is a rental and owned by someone outside of the area? Does the owner get the vote?

Residents of the area will decide how much the property and sales tax will be within the district. If you are a property owner and want to have a say, you will have to move to that taxing jurisdiction.

Just like if I own property in Independence and live in KCMO, I don't get to vote on the sales and property tax for independence. Or for an example within KCMO city limits- if I live in North KCMO, I don't get to vote on the property tax rate of the KCMO School District South of the river unless I live there. It doesn't matter where you own property. Residents who live within a taxing jurisdiction decide the tax rates within that jurisdiction. There is nothing revolutionary about this.

[beautyfromashes]

So, someone who owns a rental property doesn't get a vote on an increase in the amount of property tax they will be assessed within a special district? That doesn't seem fair.

[kboish]

So, someone who owns a rental property doesn't get a vote on an increase in their property tax rates within a special district? That doesn't seem fair.

Why? I disagree wholeheartedly. Landowners are not a special class of citizen and do not get special voting rights. You get to vote where you live. Thats it. Otherwise, wealthy landowners would get to vote in hundreds of jurisdictions. Not to mention, you are pretty much saying that corporation and LLC's should get a vote- since most rental real estate is actually owned by corporate entities.

[beautyfromashes]

Seems to be taxation without representation, to me. You're charging someone a tax that they don't get an input on.

[KCPowercat]

You have some number errors, forgot a few taxes and this splits it out more.

Based on the CIDs it would cross, the highest rate would be 10.35%, the same as the stacked special sales taxes in KC Live and Performing Arts.

3.0% general MO
1.0% education MO
0.125% conservation MO
0.1% parks and soil MO
0.5% Jackson County
0.25% general misc Jackson Co
0.375 stadium Jackson Co
0.125 Zoo tax Jackson Co
1.0% capital improvement KC
0.5% mass transit KC
0.375% KCATA KC
0.25% fire fighters KC
0.25% public safety KC
0.5% for parks/streets K

Thanks for the error correction... Any answers to my questions?

[kboish]

Taxation without representation literally works the opposite way.

If you own land in an area and don't live there, you should not get a vote. Think back to where this all comes from. The British imposing a tax on colonies. The whole point is that the local residents did not get to decide their own tax rates AND the taxes imposed were being taken to some other "jurisdiction". It should work the opposite way.

If you own property in my taxing jurisdiction- you are extracting resources/profits from my local area. I should get to tax you and any commerce you conduct in my taxing jurisdiction for the privilege and benefit of extracting profits from my local area. The purpose of this tax should be to, of course, improve the local infrastructure, education, and public sphere to encourage more commercial activity and improve the local quality of life.

[KCPowercat]

Seems to be taxation without representation, to me. You're charging someone a tax that they don't get an input on.

This is how property tax works. Pretty sure the representation argument has been decided in courts a long time ago.

If a person renting votes for this as they are the one living there, as the landlord who may not live in KCMO, you recover the costs with a rent increase unless you aren't very good at being a landlord.

[beautyfromashes]

Is it one vote per property or does a rental with 5 people living in it get 5 votes and the single older lady who actually owns a house and lives alone get 1 vote?

[kboish]

Its residency within an area. It has nothing to do with ownership. Why would the single older lady's vote be valued any differently than a renter?

[beautyfromashes]

First, because she will actually paying the bill. Second, because even if you count increased rent as a covering of the higher tax rate, she will have a higher cost and still get no additional benefit of the streetcar than anyone else. She basically will be paying part of the ridership fare for her five neighbors who are renting.

[kboish]

First, because she will actually paying the bill.

They are both paying the bill. The owner of the rental units is paying the property taxes out of the rents he charges.

Second, because even if you count increased rent as a covering of the higher tax rate, she will have a higher cost and still get no additional benefit of the streetcar than anyone else. She basically will be paying part of the ridership fare for her five neighbors who are renting.

This is a wholly different argument. You are essentially saying that lower density uses (the single family house the little old lady lives in) should be subsidized. Is the same true for roads built with property taxes? She gets 1/5 the use of the roads as the 5 unit apartment complex. Should she pay taxes at 1/5 the rate? The lower utilization of public goods by low density development issue you brought up really shows the low density development is an unsustainable model in an urban area.

Let us also not forget, the property tax increase is only within 1/3 a mile of the actual line. This is mostly businesses and multi-family, although yes, there will be some single family dwellings included.

[flyingember]

First, because she will actually paying the bill. Second, because even if you count increased rent as a covering of the higher tax rate, she will have a higher cost and still get no additional benefit of the streetcar than anyone else. She basically will be paying part of the ridership fare for her five neighbors who are renting.

Don't think just about residential, think about commercial too. Someone should get a say on if an area is somewhere people want to shop in.
A property tax will raise the cost to shop in an area just like a sales tax does. Stores pass on the cost of their property taxes in their costs just like a landlord does in rent.

This is another reason why renters get to vote but a landlord doesn't. They're not impacted by all the taxes that can be imposed.

In both cases the taxes are passed along to the end user of the service. And renters are impacted equally.

Go further and think of office buildings. If a property owner gets to vote does their tenants get to also? They neither live in nor own land inside the district but they're impacted by rate increases on their lease. Do employees get to vote because they eat at a place across the street?

You have to cut off who votes somewhere.

People who live inside the district have the most day to day impact. If they think imposing a property tax causes jobs to move too far away they may vote no even if they don't own property. I doubt all voters think this way but it shows how ownership isn't the key aspect to look at. It's the 24x7 impact on the individual that has the base for all the activities in their life inside the district. Distance to drive to get to affordable shopping, access to jobs, cost of rent/taxes, etc. Residents get hit with the impact of every tax while every other group may not be impacted by any of them. That's why residents vote and no one else.